HomeMy WebLinkAbout1975-05-27 Min - Board MAY 271 1975
The regular-adjourned meeting of the Board of Directors of the Truckee-
Donner Public Utility District was called to order by the President at
7: 30 p.m. in the conference room of the District.
ROLL CALL: Waters , present ; Sutton, present; Wilson, present ;
Anderson, present; Craig, present.
EMPLOYEES PRESENT: Kinzie, Hobensack, Grow, Drace
OTHERS PRESENT: Art Broughton (Sierra Sun) , Kenneth P. Merriman
�. W. Beck & Assoc) , James Maass , Adolph Moskovitz
(representing Calvin Bright) , Robert Christensen,
Glen R. Stice, Sally Christensen, F. D. Beardsley, Mrs .
F. D. Beardsley, Sid Karsh (Dart Resorts) , Marge Adkerson,
Don Davis (E. L. Pearson & Assoc. ) , Charles Doskow (Dart
Resorts) , John T. Salas (CHZM Hill) , Stan Zier (Dart Resorts) ,
Don Strand (Dart Resorts) , Ossian Butterfield (Mgr, TTSA) ,
District Counsel Joseph Q. Joynt.
MINUTES OF MAY 6 , and MAY 12 , 1975
Approval of the minutes of May 6 and May 12 were postponed to the next
regular meeting.
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BILLS FOR BOARD' S APPROVAL
Hobensack: Mr. Chairman, if this is the appropriate time, this bill was approved by
the Board. I had cleared it with Mary, I thought it was a proper bill, and the
Treasurer, Mrs. Sutton, has found it is not a bill as such. It is for lobbying.
So, for a bill for service rendered, it very well might not be a proper bill. You
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might want to give that for some discussion by the Board.
Craig: How is it listed on the Bills for Board's Approval? It was listed as a
service?
i
Sutton: It was listed as rental on the radio equipment. And it is in the amount of
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$30.00.
Craig: License fee for the radio?
Hobensack: That is what I thought it was. But apparently it is for lobbying in
order to keep the quality of service up. It was really a license.
Sutton: It is an association, John, of license-holders. FCC license-holders. And
one of their goals is lobbying to keep license fees down. Thevhole thing is mislead-
; ing in that they sent an invoice and then their letter which is a follow-up letter
indicates we hadn't paid the previous notice. When I signed the check, I asked
Paul to hold it until this meeting. I think the Board should decide whether it
wishes to belong to an association of mobile unit license fees.
Craig: Maybe if I can sort of summerize this letter. It is from the Southwest
Utilities Telecommunications association. It says a major portion of the funds are
used for professional legal services in dealing with the Federal Communications
Commission on behalf of all licensees, a minor portion for clerical, postage, telephone;
preparing legal services are required to keep and protect the frequency spectrums used
by the utilities. FCC increased the licensing fees in 1974. This organization was
�,,,, instrumental in defeating their action and peak schedules were rolled back. This
action alone caused a savings to your company more than equal to your fair sure
invoice from this organization for 4-75.
Sutton: I can't find last meetings bills, but it was listed on the bills as rental
for the mobile unit which was in error. My own preference would be not to pay it.
So, therefore, I move that that. ..
Craig: What is your recommendation, Paul?
HobensacK: Well, that was very misleading and I would have to agree with Pat. The
way they sent it, had I read it that way, I wouldn't have wanted to pay it either,
I John. Had they had sent it and said it was for lobbying and billed it to us properly
or asked us for a donation, I would have been probably in agreement. But the way the
thing is, I don't agree with it either.
Page 62
May �'J 1975
Bills for Board's Approval . . . continued
Craig: So then we would need a motion to rescind payment of this.
Sutton: I just made that motion. I don't think there was a second.
Waters: Let's go into this a little more. What is this California Special
District's Survey Report? In the amount of $50 which was also on the last
bills.
Hobensack: I don't remember what that was, Roy. Special District's Survey. . .
I can't answer that without the bill.
Craig: Would you like to know at the next meeting, Roy? ---�
Waters: Yes, I would. If we are going to this lobbying, I think we are doing
alot of lobbying ourselves that we are paying fir.
Hobensack: I would guess that was. . .
Waters: If you lobby one way, you have got to lobby the other way. Or you don't
pay any of it.
Hobensack: This I belive is going to lobby. But you have a proper question there,
we should look at that.
It
Waters: I would suggest we go into/at the next meeting.
Wilson: Could you state your motion, I didn't hear it.
Craig; I didn't either.
Sutton: I will state it again myself then. I move that we rescind approval of
payment of the bill of $30 from whatever it is. United Telecommunications assoc-
iation. Well, it is something else listed on the bills. What is it Roy?
Waters: It is Utilities Telecommunications Counsel, Rent on mobile transmitter
system.
Craig: The letter is from one organization, in Witchella, California, and the
payment is sent to I guess the National Organization in Washington, D.C.
Wilson: I would sec, that motion.
Craig : It has been moved by Director Sutton and seconded by Director Wilson
that we rescind payment on this bill. It isn't actually a bill. May we have
a roll call vote?
Merrilyn Kinzie: Mr. Waters, (no, I don't think I will vote on it. I will abstain
on it until I find out on this other bill) , Mrs. Sutton (yes) , Mr. Wilson (yes) ,
Mr. Anderson (yes) , Mr. Craig (yes) .
Craig: Bills for Board's approval tonight in which you were mailed a copy.
Waters: I move the bills be .paid as listed.
Fosten: I will second; I have some questions on them. On petty cash_, I know there
was some discussion last fall and so forth. What is the procedure now?
Hobensack: Petty Cash, it was opened to everybody before I came here. Now I have
kept the key and Mary had the key while I was gone. But we do have the vouchers
for anytime the Board wants to see these, they are available. I believe the
Petty Cash is something that normally does nctlave to go to the board; however,
it is available.
Wilson: I was wondering what the procedure was because I knew there was some
discussion. Just wondering, on Mr. Cruz, how that problem developed.
Hobensack: I would like for Merrilyn to explain that to you. She is well aware
of what happened here. Merrilyn, would you explain what happened?
M. Kinzie: He overpaid on his connection fees.
Hobensack: Tell them why, because he was so honest.
M. Kinzie: He just came in and paid $25 about every two weeks, until finally
I said to stop, that I thought he overpaid. So I checked back and he overpaid
exactly $105.
Page 63
Page Two -- May 27, 1975 p
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Insurance . . . continued
Sutton: But we should have that choice.
Stice: Oh, yes, definitely. I will get it to you. This is not something that
we are ignoring it is just that we haven't received it.
Sutton: But you are working on it. The other things I had, on your letter of
May 5, the blanket coverage on buildings, substations, tanks, and pumps. The
last sentence, if you have that letter, says that includes - replacement costs
on buildings.period. And we had question of whether that sentence just wasn't
completed and whether it also applies to substations, tanks, and pumps.
�. Stice: In this where we talk about the all-property blanket coverage on buildings.
The item building includes substations, tanks and pumps. Those are all considered
as a building item. We go down the equipment item, which is equipment as you
would think of it for offices and so on,almost any type of equipment. But the
blanket coverage does include the substations, tanks, and pumps.
Sutton: Okay. And then another question has arisen on the dwellings that the
district owns which was indicated as being located on Glen Road, which it is not.
Stice: Where the heck is that thing?
Sutton: It is right over here (pointing) on Donner Trail Road right behind here.
Stice: You should have seen the address they had before.for this thing; on Donner
Trail Road?
Sutton: But we wondered, but some of us wondered at least, if that house was even
worth insuring for anything. There is $10,000 worth of.. .I think. . .of fire and I
can't read the other symbols. What is it?
Stice: Fire, extended coverage and special form. Special form is very cheap on a
dwelling and it does provide the snow damage which it could collapse or whatever.
And, so I think it is a good buy and any house should have it up here. In any event,
there again, you are probably talking about $35 to $40 maximum per year on that
"^ building. Now, if you want to delete, there is no problem. We can take it out.
inside
Waters: I would suggest prior to that you go over and take a look / the place.
i
Stice: Why don't you just tell me about it, Roy.
i
Waters: It is very nice. It has been worked on. Alot of work has been done to it.
Stice: Well then, you probably are underinsuring it. I don't know what in the hell
you can build up here for $10,000. There is no way to build anything.
Sutton; Then I also wondered on this which the district submitted to you, are all
the pumps and pumping equipment that the district has including that which is
installed in wells included on that or is this a warehouse inventory list.
Stice: This is the list that Ken supplied me with as to be covered under the
Inland Marine Floater. The pumps that are in the pumping stations are included
in. . .under your substations, tanks, and pumps coverage. So these are supposedly
mobile units.
Craig: Any further questions?
Stice: One other thing that I might mention. We are having prepared now a complete
copy of the policy as you will receive the original tonight. But you will. . .a com-
plete copy of the policy will be sent to you Joe for you to look over if you wish or
to keep in your files so that you will have it on hand. The total annual premium,
to get to the bad news, on the package policy was $8,263 and I think if you compared
this to the premium which you were paying before which was a little less, you will
find that you are probably getting a better buy on this than you were previously
even though we have had something like a 40% increase in liabilities. So, sometimes,
it just doesn't pay to bid them. I think the companies get a little bit frightened
because they really don't know what they are after. In any event, the policies are
here and if you have any questions at all concerning them let me know.
Wilson: The $8,263 is the additional umbrella?
Stice: The total premium for the two contracts is $8,263 on the base policy and
$769 on the umbrella for a total of $9032. I talked to one of the girls out here
the other day and she asked me about setting this up; if I could set it up monthly
or quarterly or whatever. And that really is no problem at all, we can do that
7�
Page Nine - May 27, 1975
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V
TTSA Regional Sewage Plant .. . continued
Salas: But we will be getting awful close to when we need service.
Craig: Right. That is why it seems urgent that we do something soon.
Anderson: Isn't that what R. W. Beck's letter is addressed to?
Craig: Right, this gives a proposal .
Anderson: Fine, well with the information that you requested of Paul , what is
left for R. W. Beck to do with regards to the engineering services for Feeder F
analysis?
Craig: Well , apparently nobody knows today whether that feeder. . .what that feeder
can supply.
Anderson: Isn't that what you were asking of Paul?
Craig: Sort of.
Anderson: Okay, then I am right back to my same question. If you get that
information from Paul , what is left?
Hobensack: #2 will carry it.
Wilson: Will carry 2,000?
Hobensack: It will carry the 2,000 but it will waste alot of energy.
Craig: Who bears that expense of the wasted energy?
Hobensack: That is a heat loss.
Craig: The District or the. . .
Hobensack: Well , it is in our rates. And I can't give you this off the top of
my hat what the losses would be in it, but it would be alot of losses. They are
talking about a high-load factor. So if they got a 500 watt loss 24 hours a day? -~
What is your load factor going to be?
Salas: Well , we run 24 hours, but it won't be at that peak load for probably
a couple of years. It might start out. . .
Hobensack: But you want an ultimate capacity of 2,000 though in 1976.
Sutton: 177.
Hobensack: '77.
or 27,
Salas: Our connected load will be in the order of 26 / our expected maximum is
in the order of 22. But our average will be well under that for several years.
Hobensack: 1500?
Salas: Maybe, maybe a 1 ,000 to 1 ,500.
Hobensack: That is going to be alot of losses too.
Wilson: Well , we have got to do something this year, is that correct? Is there
any alternative to taking some action to assure them that we can supply them with
100 KW. You said one alternative if we fell thru would be for them to use the
generator.
Hobensack: Well , a generator would be an alternative.
Wilson: That would be a very short term.
Hobensack: Only for temporary service would we want to put a generator in.
Craig: Well , Paul , you are saying that even for temporary service, for minimum
service, for construction, we are talking about a minimum of $25,000?
Hobensack: That is three-phase. They asked for temporary three phase.
Craig: So, this year between now and January we are talking about a minimum $25,000
worth of work.
Page 16 - May 27, 1975
77
TTSA Regional Sewer Plant . . . continued
Hobensack: That is an estimate for three Rphase.
Sutton: If the District does the construction?
Craig: Is that what it is based on?
Hobensack: With the District employees.
WAters: We can't do the construction.
Sutton: So this is nothing anyway. Does anybody have any knowledge of whether
,�... that Martis Dam feeder will supply the temporary service if the extension were
made to the plant site?
Hobensack: Yes, it has the capacity for temporary service.
Sutton: So that. . .
Hobensack: They were asking for three-phase. Then when we talked, they asked for
an alternative of three-phase or single phase.
Salas: Yes,
Sutton: And you indicated tonight that three phase is temporary service.
temporary
Sal as: We would much prefer/three phase. We discussed the possibility of, if you
didn't have three phase, we would take single phase.
Craig: Well , there isn't that much different there in the cost of construction.
Hobensack: The labor is all the same.
Sutton: Now, that feeder was built to construct Martis Dam, wasn't it.
Craig: Currently, I believe it is operating the sewer ponds, the Truckee-Sanitary
District's.
Sutton: Anything else? Any other heavy loads?
Craig: Olympic Heights.
Sutton: Olympic Heights is served off of that? The Mill is served from it?
Hobensack: The Mill is served, but it is heavier wire at the Mill . I don't have
the map. Do you remember what the map says. It is a break-down from the Power
Plant.
Sutton: But it is served from that Feeder?
Merriman: It is 1/0. The conductor from the substation is 1/0 out to Olympic Heights
and then it is #2 there out to Martis Dam. And I agree with Paul that you can carry
the 2,000 on the #2 conductor that far. But that far and that heavy of a load, you
will probably have some regulations problem which is another term for lawsuits under
voltage regulations laws.
Craig: Is it possible vdtage regulators out on the feeder would resolve that?
Merriman: It would boost the voltage, but you would still have the losses. And there
is presently connected to that feeder guessing from the information that you sent to
me is something in the order of connected load of a couple thousand. You are getting
up onnumber 2 pretty close to the limits of that. And perhaps, and I am only guessing,
i that n the long-haul you would want at least a 1/0 and perhaps a significantly larger
conductor going to maybe 2/0 or larger.
Craig: Aluminum ACSR?
Merriman: Yes. Just from the standpoint of peak losses down to provide the plant
with good regulation and peak voltage at the plant. More than likely in a long-
range, it would even be perhaps on a loop which maybe served from two substations
or two feeders out of .a single substation.
Craig: To give increased reliability?
Merriman: To give increased reliability, better voltage regulation p4us serving
other load out in that area, which is developing all the time.
Page 17 - May 27, 1975 -7 S
TTSA Regional Sewer Plant . . . continued
Sutton: Maybe then we should get through this proposal that was requested. Not
by me from R. W. Beck on this particular problem.
Craig: Does everybody have a copy of that? Maybe I will read it just for every-
body (Mr. Craig read the proposal dated May 27, 1975; a copy of which is attaced) .
So this would give our District some of the answers we apparently need,
before July.
Salas: Was there a schedule on that?
Wilson: No, there is no time frame at all . ..Noun*
Sutton: He made no commitments.
specific reason. And I will answer
include that for a s
Merriman: Well , I didn't P
that. I refer back to the next to the last paragraph on page one, and that is
review and comment to the extent that information is available as to whether such
proposed extension and improvements may be compatible with long-range plans of the
District. And I had the feeling or the understanding that maybe there was some
urgency on getting the best information available as soon as possible. I am pre-
pared to do that or as we get further into the study we are doing, we will be
developing information out there so that if your timing is such that I can delay
answering this until about the time we finish the study, the results would be
more precise, more meaningful .
Craig: After July, you mean?
Merriman: Yes, I am saying we can do this and finish it up about the same time or
if you would like us to do it within the next couple of weeks or so, we can do
that also. I am just saying, that is why I put that comment in there. If there
is urgency, we can proceed and based upon the best information we have we can give
you the best we can do now. A little later, we can do better.
Salas: Excuse me, that was for the study but not the design, is that correct?
Merriman: Right. (Another unidentified voice: Right, for $900)
Sutton: The design would be after that at an additional cost.
Waters: Of around, not to exceed $7,000?
Sutton: $3,000 to $6,000 for the design.
Merriman: I am making just a broad estimate of three to six depending on what
facilities are developed as we need them. For instance, if there is some
reconductoring involved of the existing feeder, then that is additional work.
Waters: The $1 ,200 puts over to $7,000 on top of the contract which was a minimum
of $25,000 which would never be taken by any contractor. You know what the cost
of construction is of a mi;e of line of this nature?
Merriman: Probably in the order of $25 to $30,000, in that range.
Waters: That is an outside contractor?
Merriman: Yes.
Waters: There must be an easier way than this.
Craig: We are open to suggestion, Roy.
Waters: I made a suggestion. Why don't we include in any study that you do,
making a deal with Sierra Pacific Power Company to handle it. They have a line
right down the middle of it. Let tote district spend two or three million dollars
for a new substation for it or a million dollars, whatever it i s.
Sutton: . Last year we had the opportunity to allow a subdivider to request power
from Sierra Pacific and we declined to do that. And I don't know whether anybody
else's opinion on the board has changed or not. Mine hasn't.
Butterfield: I think we were smart enough not to request that. I think what
we requested was that you dbtain service from another point and we would buy power,
or whatever you do to get it there, fine. We would still be dealing with you.
Page 18 - May 27, 1975
7c1
TTSA Regional Sewer Plant continued
Craig: That should be. . .
Sutton: That might be one of the alternatives that should be looked into, maybe
the demand charge such as would make it more sensible to do that. I don't have
any idea. Maybe somebody else would have to tell me that.
Hobensack: Just the connection charge, I imagine, from Sierra Pacific would be
expensive. Just to tap the line. That is usually expensive, isn't Ken?
Merriman: I think what you are talking about is, unless you have Sierra Pacific
serve below it, you are going to buy power from Sierra Pacific at 60 KV and step
it down to 12 KV, and you can put the feeder extension in for less money
than you
can put in a substation.
Sutton: Well , it seems to me. . .
Hobensack: To tap the line, you need protection equipment which would be very expen-
sive.
Merriman: Well , yes. You would need a subs a i be
t at ion that would/very similar to for
instance, Donner Lake.
Sutton: It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, this is a substantially important problem for
the District to provide the TTSA with power and I believe a commitment was made by
this District by Mr. Paulus over a year ago. That the district would indeed be
prepared to serve power by January 1 , 1976. And I think we have to do something
that will resolve the problem so that we are not the ones that is holding p u the
Sanitation Agency. The Sierra Club can and the lawyers can, but. . .
Butterfield: There are al of of folks in line. It is your turn.
Sutton: It would seem based on Paul 's estimate of $25,000 to construct temporary
P Y
service using our labor at a cost of $25,000, I would presume that this would have
to go to bid which means plans and specifications eventually. And I would prefer
that since Beck is already concerned with the problem of the District from the stand-
PMM- point of substations and transmission lines that we throw this on Ken's lap. And
I would so move that we accept the proposal for the study of Feeder "F" problem at
E the amount of $900 and not to exceed $1,200 by R. W. Beck and that it be done I think
by July. By the time the other study is finished.
Salas: What would be the schedule for Plans and Specifications after that? That
would determine how fast you needed this thing.
Butterfield: It starts snowing in November sometimes.
Waters: Probably when we get the money.
Merriman: I would say 60 days.
Sutton: That would be September. And if we advertise for bid, that would be October.
Wilson: We would be bidding in October.
Sutton: And how long would something like this take to construct?
Hobensack: We would have to order the materials.
Merriman: That would have to be the real problem; the material delivery. Even if
the District proceeded right now, what is wire delivery now? Four to six months?
Can you get wire?
Hobensack: I could pull some strings on the wire depending on what size wire you get,
Ken. If you use 2/0, we might have enough here to steal for this job and replace
it. Any hardware, I don't know what hardware delivery is in that magnitude.
Merriman: Insulators have been difficult. They have been a problem in the not-to-
recent past.
Salas: You could possibly order some of these in advance.
Sutton: Well , if they were a bid item, I don't think the district would necessarily
furnish the hardware.
Salas: It still could be a bid item; we have done such things because of delivery.
I am sure Mr. Merriman will attest that it is a pain in the neck.
Page 19 - May 27, 1975
TTSA Regional Sewer Plant . . . continued
Merriman: Sure, the district could pre-buy material under a bid.
Hobensack: Would this be under or over $2,000? If we bought it under $2,000,
then we could go ahead and start buying the material a little bit at a time, but
if goes over $2,000 then we couldn't.
Salas: But, even on a bid basis your engineer could prepare documents topre-buy
the materials in less than 60 days.
hobensack: Yes, I agree with that.
Craig: Then the successful bidder assumes of that?
a
Salas: There are several ways to do, none of them/convenient way to do it. ,
Craig: Then we get back to how far TTSA is going to go in advancing any money
for this project. How far does TTSA go on engineering, drawing up plans and
specifications for bidding? For the construction--extension?
Sutton: You want their engineers to do your drawings?
Craig: No, I say, who is going to pay for the plans and specifications for the
extension? Is the PUD going to let this contract to do the study and draw up plans
and spedf i cati ons on the hope that the construction will begin next January?
Salas: Well , let's see. I think we discussed that last time. Correct me.
We need power the first of January. Whatever you tell us we have to do, we are
ready to tell you that we realms need temporary power the first of January. As
far as the 2000 KW, we are not prepared to make a commitment on that date until
the contract is let for construction which should be this fall .
Craig: September or October.
Salas: That is what we expect.
Butterfield: We expect to pay for this, don't we (to Mr. Salas).
Salas: Somehow.
Butterfield: We are expected to pay for the construction and design of the fac-
ility to serve us. We will pay for it. But we would like to see numbers to see
what we are getting into to. But whatever the fair cost of the design and con-
struction of that portion to serve us solely or our proportionate share of what-
ever is being built. Fine, we expect to pay for it.
Craig: That $3,0(D to $6,000 figure, even though that might include reconductoring
some portion of that line, it would just be reconductored to meet the demand of
the plant. I mean it could be done that way.
Merriman: Yes, it could be. May I make a suggestion? This all looks like it is
all inter-tied, I mean from the standpoint of schedules and certain targot dates,
if we were authorized to proceed with the study, I might suggest that we would
proceed immediately and go through it.
Craig: Do the feeder study?
Merriman: Yes. As rapidly as possible. Come back with preliminary information
which could be updated. Chances are it would be reasonably valid and could be
updated. ..
Craig: Fairly inexpensively?
Merriman: Yes.
i
Hobensack: You could get that, couldn't you Ken, the only thing that might change
would be the wire sizes. You would have the same hardware, the same poles.
That is correct.
Merriman: /And then come back to you, as I say, in a relatively short period of
time with the results of and our recommendations as to what be done and perhaps
some kind of schedule. And then, they are talking about going to bid around some-
time in July. That is your targot date. But if some intervening things happen
which postpone that, then the District can adjust how rapidly it proceeds with
its commitments.
Craig: With its drawing and specs?
Page 20 - May 27, 1975 91
TTSA Regional Sewer Plant . .. continued
Merriman: Yes. But if you don't have to wait until . . .to sort of have a
is envisioned, then you are. ..you might sayyou have plan of what
Y the liberty berty to proceed earlier
if it is deemed advisable to do so.
Anderson: What would happen to the cost in that event?
Butterfield: I think what John is trying to say is that .we are telling You now that
we are going to need, firm, 100 KW power and if Y P y money that we owe you
that. We will
pay it even if the plant goes away.
Salas: We are prepared to pay it and that is because we are afraid
bid date is delayed from July to August and we that when the
9 decide to put i t off for a couple of
board meetings, that we are afraid that we won't get power the first of January
.
Butterfield: So, whatever is required to get that. If the numbers are willing,
this is a different action than the Litimate and so forth we haveaand
it when we see numbers. We are saying100 kw, the got to talk about
you for it. � end of this year, and we will pay
Salas: The other hedging, I can't envision, you are makinga stud f •
y o your distribution
on
system, the Lord knows what might be out there someday, and that study. . .
Wilson: But we are doing a study on transmission.
Salas: Okay, when you study this particular feeder, we don't know exactly what
that means. Are you studying this (pointing to blackboard) or alot of other things?
Sutton: Well , we should be studying it from the standpoint of what will b p e beyond it.
Salas: That is what I am thinking, that you really should be studying '
now, we are only interested in this, the line Y 9 that. Right
( to feed the plant)
Sutton: That is all you want to pay for?
Salas: Right.
Anderson: You will not be held to this figure if the stud i s demanded anded of you in the
near future rather than the July date when you thought more information would be
available.
MErriman: No, what I said was •
that proceed in eit
her ther way and what I am saying
is that I would recommend that if you want the study done that we proceed p and do it
immediately, get the information back to you, and then we will update it in Jul and
figures I wouldn't see any reason why it couldn't be updated within the fi that Y
here. And, as Paul said, 9 t are given
about the only thing that would happen is ma be some perhaps
minor rerouting or a change in wire size and that is somethingg h
that/� e ave gone
thro
ugh the calculations and the work and so forth and to go back and make an adjust-
ment is not that difficult a problem.
Anderson: I don't understand why you can't give us a fi rm figure, then. The reason
on
you said you were hedging was because in the overall master plan you do not have all
the information you need. And now you are saying that you could give it to us now
and update it and keep it within this figure. I am a little confused. (there were
two conversations going on at one time---couldn't separate them) No, No, no, he wants
bids and specifications, he doesn't want a study.
Craig: No.
Anderson: Maybe I am confused.
Wilson: What you are proposing by July is just the study? Not plans and prepared
to bid? Is that correct?
Butterfield: I think now he is proposing. . .
Merriman: Let me go back and go through this again. The reason that I didn't put
a specific time---now I am only talking about the $900-$19200 information, to develope
the information.
Anderson: Just a study?
Merriman: That is correct. That is all I am talking about.
Anderson: I have a little confusion about that then.
Page 21 - May 27, 1975
TTSA Regional Sewer Plant .. . continued
Anderson: I understood you to say that you could give them, because they want a
firm commitment about the 100 kw, by January. And I thought you said you could
give that to them. A firm commitment by July 1 . Am I misunderstanding you?
Craig: Can R. W. Beck give them a power guarantee?
Anderson: I mean plans and specifications so that we can go to bid by that time
so that they know there i s a fai r amount of assurance that they are goi ng to get i t.
Merriman: That might be a little tight. Plans and specifications by July 1 .
Anderson: Is that not what you were asking for.
Salas: What we are really asking for is power by January 1 .
Butterfield: Whatever is necessary. . .you know, we are getting a little worried.
Because if you back it up from January 1 , a month of snow and then the construction
time, and the bidding time, and the plans and specs, it really looks like we have
got to move.
Salas: We would feel alot better if somebody got real excited and ordered a bunch
of wire and insulators tomorrow afternoon and proceeded with the design up to that.
We are not in the position to tell you any of those things.
Craig: ON your purchase orders?
Salas: That is what I said, we are not in the position to tell you that.
Butterfield: I tend to think that this go-round, however long it takes, is the infor-
mation we need to. . .for you to make a decision and for us to be able to buy it, for
us to buy the line. Whether we increase the line, size of the wire, what size wire
do you use on the other line.
i
Salas: John, it can't be on our purchase order because we are not technically
associated with it. As I understand, it is going to be on our purchase one way 1
or the other.
—.,
Wilson: Paul , could we internally evaluate the existing line down there. j
Hobensack: Well , you do just like we talked about here tonight, #2 wire would
be up tight.
Wilson: That would be to kick it over to their plant?
i
Hobensack: Well , there is number 2 wire existing. We are talking about a length
not just a portion of, Fosten.
WILSON: I am sorry, I didn't realize that.
Hobensack: I think this ties into what they are doing.
i
Wilson: Could we do this without knowing the positioning of substations.
I
Hobensack: We could size a line from the Truckee substation to that ultimate
site an economical wire size for 2000 KVA load.
1
I
Wilson: Would this then foul up the transmission study?
Hobensack: It might not fit in with the ultimate at all . We might have, when we
get done, and I don't know where it is going to be, and I don't think Ken does yet,
where a substation might be right near there. When you were looking at 2,000 kilo-
watt load, that is a sizable load. That might influence where an ultimate substation
might end up. That definietly, where the substation ends up, would help determine
what size wire you would have to go in there unless you were going to use that as a tie-line for 12 KV between substations. If that were the case, then wire
size calculated for that wouldn't fit for a tie-line because a tie-line would be
much, much larger. I don't think they have a problem as long as this stuff pro-
ceeds by July l ..
Salas: With Plans and Specs 60 days after that?
Hobensack: I think Ken could get them before then if you had to have them.
Salas: I keep wanting to hear that you guys want to have them.
Page 22 - May 27, 1975
-- g3
TTSA Regional Sewer Plant . . . continued
Butterfield: We are trying to convince you that you have got to have them.
Hobensack: If we step on your toes a little bit, you would get a little fast
that, wouldn't you? faster than
Merriman: Sure.
Hobensack: But, w_ proceed
would have to know for sure that you people a
it and then these people would faster. y p p actually needed
Salas: What do you need from us to tel 1 you that we really need power the first of
January. No, I mean it.
Sutton: Do you really need it January 1 ; I don't believe You. If
think you are going to need it that soon. y you are. . .I don't
Hobensack: There is a thought here that they might put up some cash that we ca
on. To buy the material and we would start buying n draw
y ng material immediately.
Salas: What we are doing is we are putting in our boiler t late o
tractor that power will be available on the p the general con-
tractor 1 st of January. If it isn't going to
1 available, we would at least like to r •• really know i t. Sure as hell , i t �s going to
start costing all kinds of different money, you can have thousands of rea
sons why we
needed power the lst week of January.
Anderson: I think what we are asking for is more than verbal assurance that the money. . .
Hobensack: I could give this to you on paper, but what happens if the don' '
i
pp Y t take it.
sutton. They have already said that they will pay for it even if the plant doesn't
get built, right? (Butterfield, right)
Hobensack: Okay, the first hundred, that is all . It sounds like there is no problem.
robl m.
Butterfield: You see. but to 900 end you really have to s figure '
p $ gure out i f the first
thing we will pay for that will say, we will guarantee for the 100 kilowatts from
here to here would do the trick. But if we are going to go back and whoever in their
deliberations decide that the line ought to be 2/0 from here back to Truckee it is
kind of sill for us to spend mone 'y p y putting #2 wire in here.
Salas: We don't need that for 100 kilowatts. We just need a little line for that.
Butterfield: Maybe we don't need 2, maybe we need 2/0, I don't know. But that is
what we are going to find out from the Feeder F Study. So we have of to know what
kind of wire to string here. g
Hobensack: What you people asked for the other day was the ultimate wire size to
feed that load from the Truckee substation without going any further and compare
them with a .temporary service of #2 going from the existing line up there for 100
kilowatts, that was what your question was.
Salas: But the reason was that we were really concerned about schedules.
Hobensack: You were concerned about dollars.
Salas: That too, and schedules. I am really concerned about schedule, Paul . The
schedule we are really concerned about this year is 100 kilowatts,we are only con-
cerned about the other schedule long about July or August.
Hobensack: There is a way, and you know this as well as I do, you can take underground
--- wire and lay it out along the ground. If you have to have it tomorrow, we could et
g
' a truck load of wire in here and roll it out along the round. g
Salas: If you would assure us of that, we would be less concerned.
Hobensack: That would be only temporary, of course. That is a method.
Waters: Are you committed to the $900? For the Study?
Sutton: I think that is our problem.
Salas: I don't think we need a study for the 100 kilowatts, do we? I don't think any-
body thinks we need a study for the 100 kilowatts.
Page 23 - May 27, 1975
45y
TTSA Regional Sewer Plant . . . continued
Sutton: Your concerns are, first of all , is what you need is an assurance of the
volume of power that you need by January 1977, ultimately.
Salas: That too. But we realize that you are in the process of doing lots of thinking
that will affect that. We are just concerned that all that thinking will slow down
our short-term need for 100 kilowatts.
Sutton: You are concerned about being assured temporary, then?
Craig: There is another point to this, we put in temporary service this year and then
you want full service a year later, you are not going to want to shut down the
temporary service for a month while we reconductor it for full service. So, I —.
think you probably want full service this January.
Butterfield: If you are not going to really do anything that will be thrown away,
then that is the way to do it, I am sure.
Craig: Besides throwing away some wire, you are talking shutting the line down to
redonductor during construction season, which I don't think you want that.
Salas: Well , it is one of things we don't want. On a priority list, it might .not
be at the top.
Sutton: John, should I quote my motion again?
Craig: Yes.
Sutton: That we authorize R. W. Beck to conduct an analysis of the Feeder F to
provide service to the Truckee. . .Tahoe Truckee Sanitation Agency Regional Plant.
At the cost of approximately $9009 not exceeding $1,200 without written authorization.
And the work to proceed as quickly as possible.
Anderson: And to be paid for by whom?
Wilson: Ourselves, I think.
Sutton: I presume it is our responsibility. 'am""
Craig: Do we have a second?
Wilson: Because this doesn't do them any good. It is just our internal . . .may I
ask about the contract in March, Mr. Merriman, I brought up the same thing
about the not to exceed $1,200 without prior written authorization from the
District. And in March you assured me that it really didn't mean anything and
that you would get a completed report to us within the high cost figure. And
here the wording comes in again.
Merriman: Yes, the reason for the wording is if we are asked to do something that is
outside the scope, in other words, if we are asked to do additional work, then we
would ask that the figures be reincreased. But that would only be on the basis
of prior written authorization.
Waters: Doesn't this come under the scope of your contract with the district?
Merriman: Yes, that is where in my paragraph I indicated that it can be author-
ized by the district under the scope of the existing contract.
Sutton: Under additional services? (Merriman: Yes) We could have authorized
you to do the entire study, which would have included this possibly for an extra
$9,600, isn' t that true? You know, it was all of the distribution and additional
things.
Merriman: Yes, it was $9,600 or $9,800, I forgot which.
Craig: Do we have a second to Director Sutton's motion.
k'ilson : I would second it. It appears we are in a box. I haven't heard any
alternatives. You said we could roll out. . .
Hobensack: That is not the ideal way, that is an emergency situation.
Sutton: John and I just saw that sort of an installation like that today in this
district.
Wilson: Well , I was trying to ask him if we could really do that.
Page 24 - May 27, 1975 S
TTSA Regional Sewer Plant .. . continued
Hobensack: If it was an emergency.
Sutton: I don't know that we should be doing that.
Wilson: We shouldn't plan on doing that.
Hobensack: No, sir, we should not.
Anderson: My question, John, and you didn't answer it was with the information
that you have directed the manager to give us, what is there left for R. W. beck
between the $D00 and $1 ,200?
Sutton: Am I missing some information, rex? What information do you have besides
the. . .
Anderson: I am saying, John directed, would you repeat what John directed you to do,
Paul .
Hobensack: I hope I can get it right here. John asked for the wire size for temporary
service and also large enough for full-scale overhead and underground for the ultimate
load. In other words, what would be the temporary wire size and what would be the
wire size which would feed it ultimately.
Anderson: I still don't understand if you are going to go to that amount of
work. . .
Wilson: Shouldn't that be just from the existing line to the plant?
Anderson: -No.
Hobensack: No, he is just talking about the whole thing.
Anderson: And I don't understand why we are again bringing in someone else. I don't
understand the need for spending additional money if we have asked the manager to
provide us with the same information.
psalm-, Hobensack: What I am going to do here, I will come up with wire sizes just for that
plant, for temporary service and 2,000 KVA Load.
Anderson: Which is all that they are asking for at this time. But the ultimate thing
will come in the study. . .
Sutton: No, it will not unless you pay additional money. Because that is not part
of the authorized study.
Anderson: Alright, fine. I still believe it is within the manager's capacity and
I would not. . .you answered my question, thank you.
Wilson: If we went ahead and did a hook-up which would suffice for A
100 kwwith
the report we will get in JulyI take it on transmission facilities, sumably the
citeing of the substation, would we then be in a position to do a final line sizing
next year that wouldn't conflict with this? Or. . .right now you are saying. . .
Hobensack: I believe we could Fosten. All John is asking here is to give him two
wire sizes. After we come back with the two wire sizes, that doesn't mean we are
going to put them in.
Anderson: That will provide them with temporary service?
Hobensack: Temporary service is, I don't think, a real problem here.
Wilson: To me it is.
Hobensack: Other than the cost to put the line in.
Wilson: Which is this $25,000. Which is going to exist no matter what happens?
Hobensack: Yes.
the cost'of
Anderson: But that study can be partly off-set by/TTSA in the future if they find that
they are in the position to go ahead and make final . . .the loading that it is going to
take to meet the ultimate 2000.
Craig: Is the Board ready for the question?
Wilson: I am not --- (Anderson: I guess not).
Page 25 - May 27, 1975
TTSA Regional Sewer Plant . .. continued
Sutton: I move we table this until next Tuesday nte.
Wilson: I am under the impression and I believe these gentlemen are under the
impression that unless we do this study. . .
Frank Beardsley: I made a little preliminary study about a year and a half ago
on the basis of a telephone call to my residen%ran Walnut Creek, they sent some
maps down. Now, from my studies, I am pretty/you are not going to use that line
for your permanent if it goes to 12 KV.
Craig: It would carry?
Beardsley: It is too far. You have a mile or- more extra and you have all that
other that you would have to run another circuit for it. There is a more direct
way to get out there according to the maps.
Sutton: This is Mr. Beardsley, who did do some consulting for a short time last
year. And you did do something on this.
Craig: Did you ever do a report or anything on those feeders?
Beardsley: The question was, and I couldn't give a final answer, they wanted to
know service for either 2000 or 3500. Well , there was a vast difference on what you
do. So I said, you could serve 2000 -- 12 KV but I didn't think you could make the
3500. You had better get a definite answer because they didn't know what kind of
plant they were going to put in whether it was going to be one type or another.
Butterfield: It has skinnyed down a little bit.
Beardsley: YOu got the skinny plant now. So a circuit could carry it but I
think there is a river route out there direct. . .more direct. You will have to
reserve this other line for what is going to grow in Martis Valley.
Hobensack: That would depend on where the substation is going to be whether they
go direct or not.
Beardsley: No, what I mean, is that I don't think if the substation is any where
near Truckee that you probably should- go out the River route rather than along
the back that extra mile.
Hobensack: But we don't know where the substation is going to be ultimately
that is the problem, that is what R. W. Beck is doing now.
Waters: I don't think this -district should concern itself with the Martis
Valley; that is Placer County.
Hobensack: Well , if they put a substation out near this treatment plant, then
you can serve Martis Valley with the same substation the treatment plant would
be on.
Waters: How can you supply Martis Valley when it is out of the District?
Sutton: But there is a condominium development zoned beside the Airport soon.
Hobensack: It is zoned for alot of residences in there.
Butterfield: Not without a sewer plant.
Wilson: Paul , ignoring studies, to supply temporary power, is there any alternative
to making the tap off this existing line?
Hobensack: That is the cheapest way possible that I know of right now. Either
that or rent a generator.
Wilson: Okay, so. . .
Hobensack: I think that is cheaper than trying to tap the 60 KV line.
Anderson: The 60 KV belongs to Sierra Pacific.
Hobensack: It belongs to Sierra Pacific and it would mean another metering point.
But your first question was if it was cheaper to build the line.
Wilson: I was under the impression that. . .and I think you were. . .we had to build
to the 2000.
Page 26 - May 27, 1975
67
TTSA Regional Sewer Plant . . . continued
Butterfield: Well , what I think I have heard4here tonight is that probably the
#2 wire that is in this line and be continued #2 out to this line it would take
the 2000.
Wilson: It would carry it but. . .
Butterfield: We can solve both problems at one time.
Wilson: It has its disadvantages.
Craig: I think we have heard that it wouldn't carry it.
Hobensack: It would, but you would loss so much that it wouldn't be economical at
all .
Butterfield: I heard over here that it would except whatever you just said, and
this gentlemen says it will take 2000.
Beardsley: It would take about 4/0 wire for 2,000. Your losses would be so high
you couldn't get the voltage out there. You have three miles or more.
to
Craig: My main concern is/not incur the rath of Tahoe City, Kings Beach, Squaw
Valley, Alpine Meadows and the whole of Truckee in holding up this plant. We will
have slot larger audience here than we do tonight if we hold up this plant.
Beardsley: The common practice in utilities over the years has been in the construction
plans be quoted an up and down charge plus putting enough to remove the salvage,
assuming you are going to put it in and then take it down again. Because it is
temporary. Then if it remains and you did use it then you could adjust that cost.
That has been the practice for 40 or 50 years.
Sutton: Unless I am mistaken, you are going to pay your share, of-whatever is
done whether it is for temporary or permanent. Right?
Butterfield: Right.
-~ Sutton: Or both. It would be cheaper maybe if the ultimate solution was the first.
Butterfield: If what y9h are going to do i& the permanent solution, we would like to
see how much more that /is going to cost over temporary solution because we are giving
you a guarantee on the temporary. If it is the same cost or the same deal or it is
not much more expensive, maybe we will give you a guarantee on the final deal . When
I say final , I mean pending whatever happens to the entire area.
Sutton: What you need is figures and.. .
Anderson: You mean just construction or plans, specs and construction?
Butterfield: Plans, specs and construction.
Sutton: When we get to that point.
Cra*g: So actually, it is urgent to get something resolved here,
Wilson: Is this feeder study urgent though.
Sutton: That is the beginning.
Wilson: Is it, though? This feeder study is .. .
Salas: I think your point about the rewiring that thing the middle of next summer
would be awkward. Not for us, but for you. If you want to determine to size that
for the 100 or the 2000 kilowatts is for that purpose the study might be worth it
especially if it will take two weeks.
Butterfield: I think the Feeder study goes all the way back here to downtown truckee.
To the sewer ponds, plant and the whole thing.
Anderson: But are you willing to off-set the cost of that study?
Butterfield: I don't think we should. I think that- is something that your company
should do whether its at your cost or not because it is the analysis of your system.
From that point on when we decide what is required to be designed and constructed for
us, then we ought to be responsible.
Page 27 - May 27, 1975
�'g
TTSA Regional Sewer Plant . . . continued
Wilson: What would be the ball-park costs of the line capable of the 2,000 Kw,
putting in "the ultimate solution" line in there versus the 100 KW line? What I
am wondering is first what would be the cost to the district of installing 4100
feet of just 100 kw line and how much more would it cost to put in 2000 kw line .
Would that be over $1 ,000.
hobensack: The labor would be about the same. The price of wire would be different.
Wilson: Would it be much more than $1,000?
wire
Hobensack: I don't know how much/is a pound now. (end of tape. . .a few words may
have been lost) ---
Merriman: The reason why in my proposal I never even mentioned the temporary j
is because of the fact that when you start building three-phase, 12 KV line,
you have a substantial investment in poles, labor and insulators and they
basically don't change.
i
Wilson: My thought was that if we-waited until the transmission study was com-
pleted and we had that in our hand then we could better judge our need for a
particular line distribution study. But since the cost variance is pretty
significant, I guess. . .
Hobensack: I think the thing you would want to know there was what are you going
to use the line for? Are you going to use it for something else, a tie-line or
what? That would change the wire size again. It kind of ties back to what these
people are doing now.
There is $5,000 difference
Butterfield: /On a thirty million dollar plant, I think we can afford the little
difference there.
Sutton: Okay, the feeder study that you will do as it relates to the study of
substations, you would also have to make determination of whether this load can be
handled by the Truckee sub, right?
Merriman: That is correct.
Sutton: So that it really is related to the study you are doing now.
i
Merriman: The study that we are doing now will address itself to the adequacy I
of the Truckee Substation to serve the load now and for the next five years.
particular
Sutton: The feeder study would be specifically this/additional load if you did
this feeder analysis.
i
Craig: Is the board ready for the vote; I am.
i
Wilson: Yes.
Craig: May we have a roll-call vote on Director Sutton's motion to engage R. W.
Beck to do an engineering study of F Feeder.
{
i
Merrilyn Kinzie: Mr. Waters (no), Mrs. Sutton (yes), Mr. Wilson (yes), Mr. Anderson
(no), Mr. Craig (yes).
{
Sutton: You have until next week.
i
CrJg: Is that the first step, Mr. Bu tterf i e 1 d.
Butterfield: I think so. What looks to be the next step would be as soon as they
can whissle out this study or come up with it. . .the where-with-all to make a decision --�
on what is to be done, as soon as they can get that to us and then get that proposal
and then decide which way we go and get the plans and specs out and the construction j
done. If we are talking about a week or two for this decision-making thing and then
go ahead and decide to plan the specs. . .
i
Salas: Again, correct me if I am wrong, but if the cheaper way to go is to put in j
a 2000 KW feeder, I think we can go for that at this time, is that right?
Butterfield: It depends on the dollars; if we are talking about a few dollars, I hate
to see them string wire and put all that stuff up there and go back and take it all
down and the guys do all this labor overhead. Depending on the cost different. It
may make alot of sense to just go right ahead and. . .maybe we shouldn't have ever
mentioned the 100 KW.
Page 28 May 27, 1975 �
TTSA Regional Sewer Plant . . . continued
Wilson: I think what we just did, negated the possibility of putting in line that we
are going to take out. Because I think if we are going to go in there with a line that
isn't going to be a permanent installation well go with the 100, the much smaller line,
which will be taken out but the cost will be the same.
Butterfield: I think we had better get the answers to these studies; I ha to say
studies because that usually means years. Then decide what to do and if it is feasible
to put the 2000 KV--kilowatt line in now, let's do it.
Hobensack: They are going to have to assure us that they will take that much load
for us to buy that much transformation. They are going to have testing power out
�--- there, that means we would have 2000 kilowatts of transformation.
Sutton: Mr. Chairman, I would like the record to show that this district was con-
tacted by Mr. Butterfield sometime in early April or late March for a reaffirmation
of power availability by January 1 , 1976, and that if there has been any foot-dragging
to get the 27th of May, that it really rests with this district for not having. . .
in
quired nquired a month ago of Mr. Merriman whether Mr. Merriman was aware of the problem
and I don' t believe he was aware of this until about five weeks ago. I don't believe
he received a letter regarding this particular problem until perhaps May 14. . .was that
the date of the letter? And I would like the record to show that.
HobensacK: Mr. Chairman. Did I discuss that with you Ken, personally?
Merriman: Yes. I was aware of that this sewage treatment plant was in the planning
but I was not requested to supply a proposal on it.
Sutton: Until May 14th. So anyway, what I say is, that this district has been
recently aware of the problem and it really is our responsibility for the fact that
we are no farther along than this.
Butterfield: Could I get an idea of when we could get together again on this and
press on to the next step.
Craig: As soon as we have the results from R. W. Beck, we will let you know.
�'"" Merriman: Yes, we will proceed immediately and develop as much information as we
can in regard to this. We will certainly bring this information down to you as soon
as we can--hopefully as I said within the next couple of weeks.
Salas: When is the next Board meeting?
Wilson: Next week, a week from today.
Craig: The 1 st and third Tuesday of every month,
Wilson: This is a delayed meeting.
Salas: I see, so the one after that would be the 16th?
Kinzie: 17th
Salas: 17th? That will be kind of a milestone. One more thing, somebody mentioned
that shutting down this line would be awkward between the first of January '76 and the
first of January ' 77, but it would be much more difficult for us after that to rewire
that line after January '77.
Butterfield: Is there anything else?
Craig: I hope that is it for the night. Mr. Christensen, you had a comment on the
last vote. Did you wish to say something?
Bob Christensen: I was just wondering how come this Board has to hire outside services
when you have a manager that is perfectly capable of doing it.
Wilson: The manager has stated that it is entirely possible that if we built this line
it would be incompatible with future design. As far as I am concerned, I thought we
were in a box with a future design.
Anderson: There may be no need for future design.
Craig: If it is agreeable with the Board, we will take a five minute break. Ken,
did you have anything?
Merriman: One thing, I have answered all your questions and you have authorized
us to proceed, wi l l this be confirmed in writing to us? ( Craig: Definitely)
Page 29 - May 27, 1975
DART RESORTS
Craig: We will take Dart Resorts now and whatever items you are interested in.
Do you have anything to say about the Hydro-Search study of the Northside Well?
There seemed to be a little bit of confusion at the last meeting on exactly who
was doing the study and who was going to benefit from it and who was going to
operate the well for the study.
Charles Doskow: As I understand it, Dr. Sharp wants to continue proving out the
well and to take additional researches.
Craig: And that was going to be paid for by Dart?
Doskow: And that will actually be paid for by Dart. We have all agreed to that
by all of us.
Craig: I thought it was your request, that you originated the further study. -
Doskow: We really didn't, he did. But he suggested it ought to be done and
we agreed.
Craig: He sold you on the idea.
Doskow: It didn't take much selling. I think it has some relevance to our dis-
cussions in that we can establish what the real capacity is and not speculate on
it.
Craig: Well , some of the Board was wondering why if the Board has not accepted
the well , why we would be requested to give our approval to do the study. If
it is your well and you are operating it, why does the district have to consent
to the study.
Doskow: I can only tell you this, Dr. Sharp is very concerned about his relation-
ship with you as well as his relationship with us. He doesn't want to do anything
which can be construed as being behind somebody's back. He knows there is ambiv-
alent relationship here. If you would write him a letter and tell him, fine, go
ahead and start the well with their study, he would be very happy to have it and
he wouldn't bother you, I am sure. I really think that is the only thing that
motivated his contacting you. But I know from my past contacts, he doesn't want ..-,
to do something the board would take umbrage at.
Craig: Sure, Paul , did you have anything on the Northside Well?
Hobensack: I just looked at this letter, I didn't have anything at all .
Craig: What it would take for the district to.. .
Hobensack: I asked specific questions of him and apparently he has answered the
questions there. It is the first time I have seen a copy of this letter.
Craig: Well , who is operating the well presently? Dart owns the well and who
is operating it?
Hobensack: Dart.
Craig: Dart is operating the well .
Don Strand: No, the district is operating the well .
Craig: We have a great disagreement.
Sutton: Who in the district is operating the well , Larry?
Nobody,
Larry Drace: /Dart is. Dave Rulley. We don't use the Northside well .
Strand: No, I know you don't use it, then why did I pay a man to turn it off
and on all last year. The District. . .
Drace: That is because it was on manual , now it is on the telemetry.
Craig: Because we got involved in a lawsuit in the operating of it, too.
Drace: When we were operating it was when it was on manual , now that it is on the
telemetry, Dave Rulley is operating it. Then the telemetry failed and now I don't
know what is being done.
Sutton: But you do not. . .you are the water man for the district, right. I mean,
Page 30 - May 27, 1975 ��
Northside Well continued
you are the one who would go- and turn off the valves or whatever if it were done
manually.
Drace: If I ran it again, yes.
Sutton: Okay, but you are not running it?
Drace: No, I don't. I go up there everyday because we monitor the tanks but we
don't. . .it really wouldn't matter who did it but. . .
Craig: So, is there any agreement then that Dart is operating the well . Dart owns
i
the well , Dart is operating the well , is that agreed upon? By everybody in the room.
Don Strand: I suppose so, yeah.
Doskow: That does seem to be a statement of fact. Actually, it doesn't seem to
require much operation.
Craig: I just want to get some agreement h fgt what is going on. So, is the Board
agreed that we can write a letter to Dr. S arpi Dart owns the well , Dart is operating
the well , the District has no objection to Dr. Sharp doing further studies on the
well . Is that agreeable to everybody?
Sutton: The District has some interest in it from the standpoint of the water going
through our system and being stored in a tank. . .
Craig: That doesn't belong to us.
Sutton: One of them does. Doesn't it go to the Donner Trails #1 and The Donner
Trails #2?
Drace: Both are our tanks.
Sutton: So we certainly have a vested interest in the fact that testing is being
done because it will effect the District's system and I don't want to give the
,-- impression that it doesn't.
Craig: What do we need to tell Dr. Sharp, then? Hold us harmless? Joe, do we have
any legal exposure there?
Joynt: Well , would there be a loss of water to the District by shutting it down?
Anderson: I believe that was a question you asked of Dr. sharp, Paul .
Hobensack: The way the letter says, there would be no loss of water.
Craig: Maybe I should read this letter then from Dr. Sharp.
Sutton: Is that the latest one? What about the one on the actual test?
Craig: This is May 19.
Sutton: What about the one before that?
Wilson: The original one.
Craig: I think I read that one last time.
Sutton: Yeah, but, I can't remember what is says, but they would be doing some
manual .. .
Craig: The well would be switched to manual and studied as far as recharge.
Do you want me to read the original one too?
Sutton: No, just the high points; never mind.
Craig: "The Northside Well is now on automatise control with manual override. We
have a computer program capable of projecting future water levels in this well as
a function of pumping rate, and the duration of pumping. The program is partially
calibrated, but we need water level and production data to finish the calibration
and thus to make the program fully operational . When operational, it should be possible
to project the yield and water levels some years in the future under any specified
production schedule. This would permit a better projection of the use of the
Page 31 - May 27, 1975 q
Northside well . . . . continued
Northside Well over the years ahead than is now possible. The necessary production
data can be obtained during automatic operation from instantaneous and accumulative
discharge meters on the discharge pipes and from records on the duration of pumping.
Useful water level measurements, however, are more difficult to obtain and will
require running the well on manual on one or two occasions per month. Accordingly,
we ask the district's permission to conduct the manual pumping on Northside Well .
In general , this would consist of, 1 ) late on day one after the tank has been
filled, place the pump on manual operation and then turn it off. Early on day two,
measure recovered water level and then turn pump on manual . Follow pump yield and
draw-down of water level well filling tank up. Number four, turn pump off when tank
fills and thereafter follow recovery and water level stay on day two. Number five,
early on day three, measure final recovered water level and turn pump on to auto-
matic. The pump would be on manual for about 36 hours during which time the tank
would be filled once by manual controlled pumping. No interference with water
supply is anticipated. This work would be coordinated with your staff. Thank
you for your consideration. Dr. Sharp." In responding to some questions we
forwarded through Paul , "This is in response to your letter of May 12 including several
questions regarding the above matter. This matter was originally brought to your
attention by my letter of May 6. Question 1 : Is it necessary for District
personnel to be involved? Answer: Yes. But to a very limited extent. Question 2: .
If so, what will be the extent of District involvement? Answer: At the time of
the first episode of pumping, the District employee in charge of overseeing the
well should visit the well with our personnel to be certain there is a clear under-
standing of both parties as to the procedure to be followed." I think we don't
have agreement here. He is mentioning the District employee that is in charge of
overseeing the well . Apparently, there is no District employee overseeing the
we 1 l .
Doskow: That would be the Dart employee.
Craig: Okay, then there is no involvement from the District.
Anderson: Do you agree to that?
Hobensack: Well , I don't think that we have to be directly involved other than
going up and seeing what is going on. I think it is a good idea for our man to
stop up there daily and just check. Because if there was something wrong, he
would notify Dart about it and they would take care of it.
Anderson: Should he be involved in the study as it is going on?
Hobensack: It might be well to be there to see what they are doing.
Craig: As an observer.
Hobensack: An observer, yes. I think, really, that is what Dr. Sharp was talking
about, as an observer.
Sutton: Can we table this until next Tuesday without any prbblem? I think we should;
you know this test should be conducted and we should cooperate with it, but. . .The
same cluesti ors we had before of who operates it and everything are still not resolved.
And maybe somebody has a really. . .I don't think a week matters.
Craig: I thought we reached agreement that the District was not operating the well
and that there is no involvement of District personnel with this test other than
casually observing the test.
Wilson: If we choose to, essentially.
Doskow: I don't think it should be casual , I think he should look seriously if he
is there.
Sutton: Okay, your employee does it by telemetry by pushing a button somewhere up
there and it turns on something and so he really isn't familiar. . . I mean, he has
never manually operated that.
Doskow: I don't think that is right.
Sutton: You don't think that is right; he has manually operated it? You see, you
tell me one thing, Larry shakes his head yes, nods his head, no. I just think. . .
Doskow: I don't know what else you are going to learn.
Craig: Are we holding up the study then. That is what I would be concerned about.
a e 32 - Ma 27 197 5 qJ
P � Y a
Northside Well . . . continued
Wilson: What would be accomplished by holding up a week?
Craig: And what sort of letter does Dr. Sharp need from us?
Doskow: I don't really think he wants anything except to tell you what is going on
and for you to say that you really don't care that much.
Craig: Yeah, I don't really see much problem, either.
Sutton: Let's say that your employee is going to go down and manually operate it
Pon- and do this pumping, and it overflows the Donner Trails #2 tank through the wood-
pecker holes again and we have another claim from the same property owner as we
had from recently. You are accepting liability for that?
Doskow: I don't think it will be any different than operating any other day of the
week. Whatever responsibility we have now, I suppose we would have then. That is a
matter of agreement.
Sutton: Are you agreeing to the liability you had for another time?
Doskow: I am agreeing to the liability we have now.
Strand: Your man was running it at that time. And we were paying you, don't try
to hook us on something last year.
Wilson: I think we could write a letter saying we have no objections if it is oper-
ated as outlined in the original letter.
Craig: As long as it does not adversely effect our system.
Wilson: As he outlined in the original letter, what would be done would be to
shut off the well which shouldn't adversely effect our system.
Sutton: Joe, have you examined this at all? Do you have any recommendations?
#,ONE" Joynt: No, but I don't see any problem, I don't see any problem of liability if
Dart and/or Dr. Sharp are doing all of this and the well overflows, I think the one
that happened last year is grey and if the lawsuit is actually filed, I think every-
body will be joined. But this one would appear to be different.
Craig: You have a better case this time.
Sutton: Okay, as long as he makes that assurance, I 'll . ..
Craig: The manager can go ahead and write a letter to Dr. Sharp stating we have
no objections to Dr. Sharp studying the well as long as it does not adversely
effect the District's water supply. Is that agreeable to everybody? (All agreed)
We unanimously agreed on something.
Craig: The Dart Rezoning Applications. We received some applications to rezone some
condominium lots.
Wilson: I don't think it is rezoning.
Craig: It is refiling for the same zoning?
Strand: That was just an error that was put in. We put in 11 , three bedrooms, instead
of 9. So we are changing the filing of the map to show three bedrooms instead of two
bedrooms.
ow-- Craig: On 9 different parcels?
Strand: I don't know if it is on 9 different parcels or whether it is on three differ-
ent parcels. The affected buildings, whatever they are.
Anderson: Of existing permits?
Stand: Oh, yes. The buildings are done and you have already hooked them up.
Craig: Okay. Paul , did you have any information.
hobensack: I didn't know what it was about. I have had the letter. . .
Wilson: That is the fi tal i ty of what is involved in the meeting, Thursday, May 29?
Page 33 - May 27 2 1975 cry
Doskow: Is that before the County?
Wilson: It says, "Parcel Map review committee in the Board of Supervisor's room. . . "
Doskow: The Parcel Map had to be amended to conform to what actually happened. And
there is no problem with it as far as the County is concerned.
Anderson: Did you increase the square footage or make the bedrooms smaller?
Strand: Added a bedroom.
Craig: Apparently, we didn't get Dart Water on the agenda tonight.
Wilson: The next item on the agenda, what was that? Number 4, Dart/Cattan -�
Water Agreement.
Craig: That was the $56,000 agreement going up Northwoods Boulevard, the credit
that Mr. Cattan gave them on the contract. Apparently, there was no approval from
the Board, the $56,000 credit. There was some question as to was Mr. Cattan acting
within his authority to grant the $56,000 credit.
Sutton: Who is renderingthis decision? I mean. . .
,
Craig: I don't know. I mean, does the Board want to look into it or not.
Doskow: I am sorry, what is on the agenda? I am lost.
Craig: Item 4, Old Business.
i
Sutton: Item 4. Here (handing agenda), Dart/Cattan Water Agreement.
Doskow: What is Cattan Water?
i
Craig: It is to get the pipe up Northwoods Boulevard.
Sutton: A previous manager.
Doskow: Was he Paulus' predecessor? ---
Sutton: yeah. And he gave Dart, or Lakeworld whatever it was, a credit of
$56,000 on the amount that was to be paid on the $40 per lot water. . .he. . .for
a line that was built to the Soma Sierra Tank.
1
Doskow: Why is it on the agenda?
Sutton: I don't know. I didn't put it there. j
Craig: I placed it, because it is an unfinished. . .it is a matter that may be
of contention before we clear the slate with Dart, as far as I am concerned. I 1
was just wondering whether the Board wanted to pursue it or not. It was brought
up perviously, did the manager have the authority to make that verbal agreement.
Sutton: In fact, the question has been brought up through the audit.
Doskow: We are still looking for a copy of your audit report.
Sutton: Well , we don't have it either.
i
Craig: So are we.
I
Sutton: There were some complications. . .at a public meeting Mr. Strand was at
about the 21st of April or something.
Doskow: This is May 27.
Sutton: I know, but some of the problems in the audit happened to be with practices
of the District. This was one of things that there was an indication from the
auditor that we needed a legal opinion of this .
Doskow: Have you got one?
Sutton: No, that is why it is on the agenda, isn't it?
Craig: Right.
have the staff here
Waters: I would suggest that you/research the records back concerning that and
report to the Board at the next regular meeting.
Page 34 May 27, 1975 g�
Dart . . . continued
Craig: Have you looked at this before, Paul?
Sutton: Not only research the opinion, but establish the authority.
Waters: I think it would be in the records of the minutes. I am sure the Board of
Directors at the time wouldn't allow anything like that without signing it into law.
Sutton: Well , do you need a motion, Mr. Chairman, that we authorize Mr. Joynt to
give us a legal opinion on that particular instance and report back. . .
Craig: How far haveyou looked into it so far?
Joynt: Well , I found one reference to the subject matter in the March 1972 minutes.
That is the only thing.
Sutton: March what? 21st?
Joynt: March 21st, 1972.
Sutton: And the letter was dated March 9?
Joynt: I haven't seen the letter. But. . .
Doskow: What is that reference with? i
Joynt: Lakeworld water payments. Well , but let me ask a question. The auditors
were going to check something further and they were going to talk to Martin McDonough,
in Sacramento, is that correct? About two meetings ago?
Sutton: That was on some other things. It had to do with Dart. On the transfer
of funds.
Craig: The transferring of restricted funds to general fund, I think.
Joynt: "Lakeworld Water Payments". These are the minutes of March 21 , 1972.
"Mr. Cattan explained on the chalkboard the route that Lakeworld water line will be tak-
ing. The route that Lakeworld is taking is 4,515 feet. Mr. Cattan told Lakeworld
that since the District is paying for the waterline at $16.25 per foot, the line
would have to take a more direct route. The line will run straight up old Highway
Road to the Soma Sierra Tank. Our agreement with Lakeworld is, they have 6,000
lots at $40 per lot. That would be payments to the District of $240,000. The
first 800 lots are exempt from the $40 payment which leaves 5,200 lots. Every
time a unit is recorded, Lakeworld must pay the District $40 for future water
so storage. Mr. Cattan said that he did not ask Lakeworld to pay this amount because
he knew that the District had an open account with them. Thusfar, Lakeworld has
recorded 1 ,970 lots."
Sutton: And the letter from Mr. Cattan is not attached to those minutes? Because
I have seen the letter.
Joynt: Who did he write to?
Sutton: From the minute reference, the implication is that the District had respon-
sibility to build the line from Highway Road to the Soma Sierra Tank, when in fact,
that was not part of the contract with Lakeworld.
Joynt: Well , if these minutes are confusing. . . (end of tape, a few words were lost).
Wilson: I have a slight problem that I am still not too clear of what we are talking about.
Sutton: You will find out in his opinion.
Doskow: Well , when can we expect the audit report?
Sutton: That is not on the agenda.
Craig: We will forward you a copy as soon as we receive it.
Doskow: Will it be sometime this year?
Craig: We hope so. This month, I hope. Possibly, the first week in July, that is
our latest estimate. Then they can get started on the '75.
Wilson: What specifically is your motion? And what is Joe to research?
Page 35 - May 27, 1975
C7
Dart/Cattan . . . continued
Sutton: The. . .
Joynt: What is the gut question here? As to how the first 800 lots were exempt?
Sutton: No, that is part of the contract. There is no dispute on that. It is on
whether Mr. Cattan had the authority to give a $56,000 credit to Lakeworld/Dart,
whoever it was, on the amount that they were supposed to pay the district on the
$40 per lot for source. . .future source and storage.
joynt: Well , where di-.d it come in? Maybe these minutes have nothing to do with the
problem, then.
Sutton: Yes, they do.
Joynt: Well , this says the first 800 lots are exempt from the $40 payment. Is that?
Sutton: That is a review of the contract.
Joynt: Oh, well when did the credit come in?
Sutton: Already on March 9 is the letter date. But I don't know where the letter
is but I have seen the letter.
Doskow: Well , do the minutes previous to that possibly make reference?
Waters: You mean the letter at one time was attached to those records?
it
Sutton: I don't know where I saw/, whether I saw it in another file or whether I
saw it in the minute book.
Joynt: Well , I don't know. I thought that was the minutes that. ..hump. Who did
Mr. Cattan write to?
Waters: I think we are going to need more security on our records. The insurance
man was right when he put $15,000.. .
Doskow: I think it is enough, Roy.
Wilson: Nobody should steal them, because they would have to find them first.
Sutton: I have seen the letter and I am pretty sure the date on the letter was
March 9.
Joynt: Well , really, I don't think it takes a motion of the board to ask me to do
something. I will certainly find out what we can, between this meeting and the
next meeting, what we can find from the records. Then perhaps, I can come to
the Board with what my questions are, and the Board could tell me what they
want me to review. Is that okay?
Craig: Sounds excellent.
Joynt: I don't see any letter in here.
Sutton: You know in some of the auditor's reports, or the accountant's reports,
there have been references to this credit.
Craig: Now, does that take care of that, Joe. Let's talk about the Airport Well .
Dan Cook was ill and was unable to be here tonight. He was going to rewrite or
write a proposal that- the PUD could submit to the Airport, involving purchase or
lease of the Airport well , for the benefit of Tahoe Donner subdivision. I think
.... we will have to postpone that until the June 3 meeting.
Doskow: When was Mr. Cook struck ill? The four of us have come some distance to
talk about this and I can't believe that the telephones aren't functioning between
here and Los Angeles.
Craig: Well , we have a rather unusual situation where our manager was out of town
on business today and it was I guess my responsibility to notify people. And I had
hopes that he had mailed the proposal before he wasstruck ill , but apparently that
was not the case. He had mentioned to us that he was going to get it in the mail
last Friday. Apparently, he did not get a chance to write the proposal . I wish you
would. . . .
Doskow: Well , what does the agenda say? It is not on it.
Craig: Right, that was my omission. I have no. . . .
Page 36 - May 27, 1975
Airport Well continued
Doskow: John, we were here on Thursday.
Craig: I have no objection to discussing it.
Sutton: I think this agenda was put out on Tuesday, wasn't it?
Craig: Yes, Tuesday.
Sutton: They usually try to get them out a week ahead of time.
Craig: So that the newspaper will know and have time to print it in the paper
about what is coming up. --
Doskow: I am completely lost because I thought it was our understanding on
Thursday that it was going to be discussed. You were going to report. . .
Sutton: It was supposed to be.
Craig: That was assuming we had the proposal written by Mr. Cook. Which we did
not have. I have no idea what happened to the proposal . Or what state it is in
right now.
Sutton: You didn't talk to Mr. Cook this afternoon?
Craig: He is not in the office. We received a call from his office that he wouldn't
be here tonight, I called his office back today, he is not in the office, he is
home, I assume.
you
Doskow: Are/used to having your consultants treat the Board in this manner?
Sutton: We are not used to him being sick.
Craig: I think it is normal for consultants to get sick. I think that 'is normal .
Doskow: I think you are entitled to more than that.
Craig: I don't know what to tell you. '^
Doskow: Do you want to report to the Board on what we did or did not agree to j
the other day and take it from there?
Craig: I think we agreed that Dan would write. . .rewrite the proposal and without. . .
and I anticipate that he would explain it to the entire board and the public and
without him being here I would hesitate to do it myself.
Sutton: I am quite sure it wasn't intentional . I mean, I am sorry that nobody
called Los Angeles to let you know. I chastised John already for that.
Doskow: Did you really.
Sutton: I really did.
Doskow: I don't think you are sorry enough. {
Sutton: No, I teld him I thought he should have called because I knew that you
were planning to come up and. . .
Craig: We would be happy to hear your side of it.
Doskow: No, I don't have a side at this point. I was under the impression though
that you were going to forward and I guess you would rather wait on Dan, and if
we have no choice, we will do that. But I am a little disappointed that we made
this effort for very little purpose.
Craig: I can relay my feelings from the meeting last week and that is it seems
that Dart wants to pursue obtaining water from the airport well in any legal form
possible, purchase, lease, wholesale purchase of water from the well . I personally
don't agree with leasing the well or wholesale purchase of the water from the well .
I don't think that satisfies our commitment to the residents of Tahoe Donner.
Our commitment will be for ever and ever and I don't see how that would be satisfied
with a 50 year lease or a year-to-year wholesale purchase agreement from the
Airport, which apparently is what the Airport Board of Directors would rather
see a limited lease or a wholesale agreement. And I don't see how that would
satisfy the District's commitments to the customers up there. And Mr. Doskow and
I have some disagreement on that. The Dart Committee, Director Sutton and myself
Page 37 - May 27, 1975 �
Airport Well . . , continued
agree to submit two or three different proposals that Dan would draw up to the
full board and see how the full board felt about the different options and then
forward whatever we agree to the Airport Board for their consideration. Do any
of the other directors have any feelings about whether we would want to pursue
a wholesale water purchase agreement or a lease agreement.
Sutton: How can we do that until we get the particulars on it.
Craig: I am just discussing the basic concept, also water purchase.
Anderson: All you are asking for us to do is to confirm that action and you have
►--- already done i t.
Craig: Right. Well , I don't see what we can do tonight until Mr. Cook is here.
Sid .Karsh: One thing I still don't understand, John, is why if the Agenda was
1
drawn up last week, why the Dart Committee report isn't on the agenda.
i
Craig: I thought it was. I don't know if that is true or not, I would have to
see my rough draft of the agenda. I may have left. . .
Doskow: Do you have any other unauthorized credits you want to discuss?
Sutton: Do you have anything you would like to talk about?
i
Doskow: NO, I would like to discuss getting power down to the TTSA the first of
January.
Craig: You want to make some contribution or something?
i
Sutton: We are sorry, Mr. Doskow.
Craig: Mr. Moskovitz, did you have something you personally wanted to talk about
tonight?
Adolph Moskovitz: I am here representing Calvin Bright, you have a matter on the
agenda that I have an interest in, but I will just sit here until it is necessary
for me to speak out about it. I understand you are going to have a Committee
Report.
Craig: Alright. I don't see it on the agenda, either, but that is alright.
9
` Do we have a report from the Bright Committee?
I Anderson: I believe you have a copy.
i
Craig: You wrote it, Rex.
Anderson: I approved it. Do you have any questions, Roy? I didn't get a chance
i
to get to you.
j Waters: None, this is the best we could come to. We may have to change the rules.
Craig: Rex, would you mind reading it for the benefit of the public.
Anderson: Okay. This is a report of the Bright Committee of May 20th. Those people
in attendance were myself, Director Roy Waters, Legal Counsel Joe Joynt for the District,
Legal Counsel Adolph Moskovitz for Calvin Bright, Calvin Bright himself, and the District's
secretary, Merrilyn Kinzie. (Mr. Anderson then read the contents of the Committee
Meeting Report, a copy of which is attached)
I am sorry this letter of recomme'dati on did not get to you any sooner,
but I understand you have copies of a letter to Director Sutton from Mr. Joynt of
which I don' t have a copy but I did see answering some concerns of her. It is
our recommendation at this time that we look into revising Rule 10 and that we
proceed in the drawing up of a contract with Mr. Bright for the Mobilehome Park.
Wilson: Paul , could you explain a little bit. Early in the evening, you mentioned
that the recommendation from you would be to treat it as we,.do subdivisions in that
the developer builds the system and dedicates it to the District. And the recommend-
ation is otherwise, and I- assume you have arguments against it.
Anderson: Yes, the reason being that in a subdivision, you sell the property and
thereby you have made your profit now. In renting a pad, you intend to make your
j profit over an extended period of time and also it was not clearly stated in here
i
Page 38 - May 27, 1975
Bright Mobilehome Park . . . continued
but it was brought out by Mr. Bright that people when they are given a flat fee
have a tendency to abuse that priviledge. So he did not feel that it was in the
best interest of conservation nor the PUD to have this occuring.
Sutton: Rex, what would be the difference between a trailer park and an apartment
house where there are rentals as far as the operation of investment over a longer
period of time through rental . Would it be. . .if we granted, no, if we made a change
in our rules to allow master metering for a trailer home park, would we then also have
to do the same perhaps for apartment house owners?
Anderson: Well , not according to our rule 10, because it says submetering
applicable to mobilehome parks.
Sutton: I realize that it would be a specific proposal , but then in order for
it to be equitable, wouldn't you have. . .if you change it for one, wouldn't you
have to change it for the other.
Anderson: What would you suggest? I would imagine the rule would apply to every
mobilehome park, but I would not see that it would apply to. . .
Craig: If someone came in and wanted to buy 20 apartment units and they brought
a good lawyer with them, they would say, well you are already doing the exact
same thing for trailers, we are renting trailer spaces and mastermetering them,
what would be the difference between renting apartments and master metering?
Anderson: I suppose under the circumstances, I don't see the difference. I
think that one of the things that changed my way of thinging was the fact that
usually in a set of apartment houses, they are in a very confined area and you
are speaking of individual meters, but usually they are all located in one place.
Whoever reads the meter walks up and stands in front of 20 meters and reads them
all . When you are talking about individually metering 100-120 mobile home pads,
you are talking about a considerable man power, you are talking about the over-
head in the office, about the billings and everything else, which I think is
a compensation that can be considered on the part of Mr. Bright's mobilehome
park.
Craig: Well , the billing in the office would be the same if it was apartments
or trailers.
Waters: I think we have had master billing on apartments, haven't we? Right
over here.
Hobensack: Not that I know of.
Sutton: You did have, yes. Mr. . .. .
Hobensack: I would like to ask Mr. Moskovitz a question and forgot what it was
now. Okay, what recourse does the customer have if Mr. Bright doesn't treat them
fairly? If they have a complaint, they go to Mr. Bright and complain. What
recourse do they have if he doesn't listen to their complaint?
Moskovitz: I believe it is the same, basically, it is the same kind of recourse
a renter would have against the landlord for any kind of unfair treatment.
There are other kinds of things, you know, that he has agreed to do for them.
And if he doesn't, he is subject to the same kinds of remedies.
Craig: Small Claims Court?
Moskovitz: Withholding rent, you know, forcing him to comply to his obligations.
Sutton: What kind of arrangement does the owner have in order to service the
line? It would be his responsibility and not the PUD's, so one of our men
would not do it. So would an ordinary electrical contractor be willing. . .
Craig: Not an ordinary one, but a good one.
Sutton: One that is a former lineman, like? Well , I was wondering, how does. . .
what kind of problems, I know we will get the complaints, I think that is what
you were talking about wasn't it, Paul? It wasn't what recourse from the stand-
point of withholding rent or going to Small Claims Court. It is how do you get
your service.
Anderson: That was discussed.
Sutton: By the Committee? Okay, explain to us, then.
Page 39 - May 27, 1975 Jol
Bright Mobilehome Park . . . continued
Anderson: Explain what?
Sutton: How this will be handled.
Anderson: That is something we have to agree on. If we agree to the idea in basic,
then it will be up to the attorneys to draw up the legal contract. And in that,
I believe, we could say we could delineate if that is what is required, the quali-
fications of the person who is going to be responsible. As an electrical employee
of Mr. Bright to maintain the service.
Craig: It is his owns lines, though.
Anderson: Yes, but I think that he is agreeable to, he has already said that he would
have someone on duty. I think he said 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. At least on-call
during the off eight
-hours. . .but I hate to say that in specifics, but he was agree-
able to having a person who is qualified to take care of the maintenance of the
service.
Moskovitz: He is going to have to assure that there is adequate service otherwise
he will be in trouble with his tenants and this he will get a reputation he doesn't
want. He has been operating rental units throughout the state and has done so in
a way that has not brought him any discredit. And I don't think he will allow a
situation to develop where tenants are dissatisfied. For one thing, they won't
stay. There arpog i her kinds of things i
to maintain this park properly. There is
going to be a /sys em there, as well , t s going to have to be maintained, you
can't allow chuck-holes to develop so- some people can't get in there. So this will
be just one of the items of maintenance that he is going to have to see that are
properly taken care of,
Wilson: I take it then that he would wellin to accept provision/ g ept a p ov sion in the contract
requiring him tD have an employee capable of repairing the system.
Moskovitz: I am sure that he will be agreeable to anything that would be reasonable.
I can't tell you specifically. Let me say, Mr. Bright had planned to be here, but
he has to start a deposition tomorrow at 9:00 down in his home town of Turlock and
he just didn't see how he could make it here and get back. So I am unable to answer
some of the specifics, I am not informed. I know he is anxious to provide good
service here and to have a good park. I am sure anything reasonable, he would agree
t o.
Wilson: What do you consider reasonable?
Moskovitz: I just don' t know.
Wilson: Evidently he indicated that was reasonable at the meeting.
it
Moskovitz: I don't know that we got into/taD very much in detail . I think what he
said was that he wanted to assure that the service was properly maintained, that he
would have that responsibility; he did not expect the District to take the heat since
the district was not providing the service within the tract. Let me suggest that these
things are details that we would work on in a contract that would be brought back to
the Board for its approval . So I think that if the concept, the basic approach is one
that you can go for, then we will work out the details and then you can see whether
those are acceptable.
C r aig : It would appear we need a vote, then, on the basic concept of master metering.
Paul or Joe, do you have any recommendations on this.
Joynt: No, I think I have written to the Board everything that I can think of that
r.,,. was involved and I have tried to answer everybody's questions as best I can.
Anderson: I think you have.
Craig: Paul , do you have anything.
Hobensack: I personally like master meters. I hate to see. . .I don't mean to say "I
hate", I would not like to see him resell power. I would go back to Rex's second
paragraph on the bottom of the first page, "felt that a master metering system would
open the door to a practice that had never been done in the past." And then the
paragraph before that, "He said it would be fine to have a master meter, but he didn't
think that Mr. Bright should resell it". I feel that Mr. Bright should also, if he
has a master meter, should have this rolled into the rent. He could recapture it just
as well having it rolled into the rent.
i
Page 40 - May 27, 1975
Bright Mobilehome Park . .. continued
Craig: It seems like the District having the meters and doing the billing, gets
the people back to the conserving power where they actually know how much power
they are using and if they use less, they pay less. It seems we are setting up
a utility within a utility by having Mr. Bright charge for electricity to his
own tenants.
Moskovitz: May I be permitted to make a comment on this point? I understand that
you did receive a copy of a letter that was sent by the Public Utilities Commission
to Mr. Joynt in response to questions he asked. And this indicates that it is a
very common practice for utilities to do this. For one thing, the user, when this
arrangement is made, pays the same kind of rate as if the utility was serving the
user directly and reading the user's meter. So that as far as the user is con-
cerned, he is not being treated differently than anybody else. He is not being
favored or disfavored. If the master meter concept required Mr. Bright not to
meter to the individual pads, but just to include something in the rent, there
is the problem of the users being conscious of how much they are using and they
would tend not to be as careful . And the letter from the Public Utilities
Commission made that point, that it is a real conservation measure to have the
metering to the individual pads where each person pays for what he uses. And
this would allow Mr. Bright to recover the cost to him of the service. The
District is not out anything because the District will be paid for the power
it serves to the master meter at the District-established rate. So it seems
that all the considerations are in favor of doing it this way. The user will
get it at the same rate as anyone else, he will know what he is using and will
pay for what he is using, and one person won't be subsidizing another.
Sutton: Well , Mr. Moskovitz, first of all , the Public Utilities Commission only
has to do with privately-owned utilities, such as PG&E and Sierra Pacific, not
this agency.
Moskovitz: No questions about that.
Sutton: Okay, so that maybe it is a common practice. . . (end of tape, a few words
were lost)
Moskovitz: . . . I don't think they understand what public utilities elsewhere. . .
Sutton: I don't think we received any information from your office or from
Mr. Bright or from Mr. Joynt, or anyone else that I know of, that has tried
to determine whether other publicly-owned utilities do this such as SMUD for
instance. That is where you probably get your power down in Sacramento. I
find that I have gotten two authentic opinions, one from the Bright Committee
from these minutes, which indicate that Mr. Bright. . .I think it indicated, I
don't have it marked, pay the same rate as everybody else for domestic service,
in Mr. Joynt's letter of May 21 , it seemed to indicate that Mr. Bright would be
charged at a commercial rate and then he would charge a different rate in order
to recoop his billing costs and such, which is what you were talking about. Now,
which is it?
Moskovitz: Well , let me explain that. As I understand it, there is a tariff
schedule the District has, it is something we haven't discussed with Mr. Hoben-
sack, but our engineer looked at the District's tariff schedule, there is a
schedule for, I don't know if it is called "commercial", but in effect, it is
the rate schedule for fairly substantial amounts of power delivered to a
master meter. That is the schedule that you have used. . .
Sutton: Then in fact, we would be. . .Mr. Bright would be reselling electricity,
is that right?
Moskovitz: You can it reselling if you like, he would be charging to the indi-
vidual pad-owners or renters at a rate that you would be charging or that you do
charge to individual homeowners.
Sutton: And he was making the difference?
Moskovitz: He would be getting the difference, and this would be. . .
Sutton: I just wanted that to be made clear.
Moskovitz: No question about it, and this of course, is his objective, that he
will be providing a service that will cost him some money. He is putting in the
system, of course, and then he will be operating, maintaining the system and doing
the reading of the meters and billing and all of that. And for that, he feels
that he should be able to get something to cover the cost. But again, let's
emphasize that what he would get from the users would be no more than you would
get from the users that you serve.
Page 41 - May 27, 1975 ��
Bri ght Mobi l ehome Park conti nued
Sutton: Okay, but then I have a question. What advantage to the District there is to
the master metering when in fact the cost of meter reading and collection, billing
and collecting, should be part of the rate structure that everybody pays. I mean,
Mr. Bright get an advantage if he buys electricity from us at one rate, and resells
at our rate, what do we get, Bright Committee. What do we get?
Anderson: What do we get when we sell to the Mill or to any other commercial? We
are still getting the rate that is higher than we. . .
Sutton: Yeah, but might we make some money on the higher rate that. . .the domestic
•--, rate. . .that we would charge the individual mobi lehome owner.
Anderson: That part of it, I haven't looked into. But I would assume that the cost
to have someone go out and read those meters and the overhead in the office would not.
Sutton: But that is all part of the rate structure, though. And we are going to go
through a rate structure, we hope, pretty soon.
Anderson: That rate structure is only for retail , that is not. . .that is to an individual
home owner, that is not to a commercial .
Sutton: I know, but what I am saying is that if the rate structure is based on the
cost to the District, it really doesn't matter.
Craig: It seems like it would be cheaper to read 120 trailers than it would 120
houses. Driving around to 120 houses. You could walk around. . .
Hobensack: It would be cheaper to read, I would agree with that.
Anderson: I don't think it is any further.
Sutton: Okay, well Mr. Bright does get another advantage. What other advantage does
Mr. Bright get besides any little bit he might pick up from being charged one rate and
selling at another. Because he would actually be selling. He also gets an advantage
as far as construction is concerned, doesn't he? I mean, he doesn't. . .he still has
to put the meter in that seems to be. . .
Anderson: He still has to meet our specificati-ons because he said, in the event some-
thing should occur and he does not plan on this, but if he should ever move out or
he should want to give it to the District, he wants it to be according to our speci-
fications.
Sutton: And he would then pay the hook-up fee that would be required? Is that right?
Anderson: He is going to pay it originally because he has to pay it from wherever our
last pole is to his master metering point.
Sutton: Yeah, but that wouldn't be the same amount as paying a hook-up fee for each
individual pad, right?
Anderson: Alright, that was not discussed, but I think that is something that could be
put in the agreement also.
Waters: That is what he was trying to avoid. $46,000.
Anderson: Originally. I am glad you are finally talking, I thought I was the only
member in the committee. Thank you.
Waters: We came up with an agreement which we thought was the fairest that we could
do. If you don't want to do it, let's throw it out and do something else then.
Sutton: But both of you recommend it, is that right?
Waters: That is our recommendation.
Moskovitz: I don't want to interrupt, if I may. If the District had the means and
wanted to expend the funds themself to build the system to each of the pads, and then
take over the operation and maintenance and read the individual pad meters , in other
words, do what you do to individual places. . .
Sutton: We don't do that. I mean everybody pays.
Moskovitz: I know you don't do that. Precisely. He is putting it in and it is an ex-
pense. It makes a difference as to the economics of the project. It does make a
Page 42 - May 27, 1975
_ gay
Bright Mobilehome Park continued
difference. So we were trying to work out an approach which would leave the
District in the same position it is when it sells power to a master meter to other
kinds of users so you wouldn't be out anything. And give him an opportunity to
recover costs, both of construction and operation and maintenance, without upset-
ting your retail , home delivery rate schedule. And also build the system to your
specifications, there is no question about that. And since, and I agree with
Mrs. Sutton, that this is nothing, and we haven't really researched whether/901Tcly
owned utilities do this, but it is a very widespread system with privately utilities
that have been developed over a period of years because apparently it seems to be
fair to all concerned and so we felt that if that is the case, it would not be
any burden to the District. And it would be a fair way to treat Mr. Bright.
Sutton: I don't think that I really received an answer from you today on my
question about resale. You know, whether in fact this District can resell to. .
I mean allow resale except to another public utility organization. You know,
Mr. Bright might have to form, as I told you, the Bright Light Utility Company
down there and buy, excess power from us. I realize and I called you Friday,
and you got a letter out to me right away. But you did avoid the question.
You said, "I would not necessarily conclude that this is the only definitition-
for resale, nor would I conclude that this is the only type of resale permitted by
law." You didn't make any conclusions, right?
JOynt: Okay, no. I don't know that I can answer that one, Pat. Yes, I would have
to agree with you that it is a resale. That is just a word or definition. Let's
. . . . . . . . . . .
say that he is the Bright Light Mini-Utility, that is another way of defining his
resale. Apparently, it is a resale that is permitted by law and apparently it is
a Bright Light Mini-Utility that is permitted by law. Now, what I tried to say in
the letter to you, the other definition, and I think you were referring to account-
ing _ rules and proceduresand even some code sections on accounting and reporting.
Because there exists a rule, accounting or otherwise, which would say, unless I
could find it in a codified statute somewhere, that a public utility such we are
here could only. . .in defining resale, meaning resale as to another publicly owned
agency. ..
Sutton: That is what I am saying, we really don't know at this point any more
than we did three months ago when all this got kicked to the Committee in a way.
Joynt: It is within three months that this new idea came up.
Sutton: I raised this question back when we first were talking to Mr. Bright,
whether or not there wasn't some prohibition against the district allowing
resale. I mean, selling for resale. It is in the minutes. It wasn't necessarily
a crucial problem, but one that kept bothering me. Really, what we get down to,
though, is that this District does have a rule that does not allow resale. And. . .
Joynt: That is my opinion, yes.
Sutton: So the question is not Mr. Bright, but whether the Board wishes to change
that rule, Rule 10 or whatever it is.
Moskovitz: I wasn't aware that you had asked any questions, Mrs. Sutton, of Mr.
Joynt, last Friday. We have researched the question previously as to whether
there was any prohibition against this kind of arrangement and we concluded that
there was not. We researched the statute because the law that governs the public
utility district, the Public Utility District law, and we researched the cases and
we found nothing to indicate that there was anything illegal about doing it and
as Mr. Joynt pointed out, the Public Utilities Commission stated that in this sit-
uation, Mr. Bright would not be a utility subject to the regulations of the PUC.
There is an expressed exemption in the statutes of that, we also found. I don't
think there is any overriding legal prohibition at all .
Sutton: Well , there is as far the rules of this District are concerned. And. .
Moskovi tz: And of course, this is subjett .to your own change if you feel it
is a fair and equitable way of doing it. There is nothing to prevent you from
entering into a contract with him pursuant to a modification to your rules. We
felt that your present rules would allow it anyhow, properly interpreted. Mr.
Joynt doesn't agree, and of course, I won't argue with him on it. But I think
that in any event, the District can allow it if it is a fair way of everybody to
see.
Craig: Is the Board ready for a vote on whether to pursue master metering? Joe,
do you have any last-minute information there?
Page 43 - May 27, 1975
/C)J
Bright Mobilehome Park .. . continued
Joynt: No, I don't believe so.
Wilson: I would like to say something. I don't like the idea in general , but my
main objection is answered by saying that they can't resale at anything other that
the existing retail rate which would apply. But, something I don't know is , what
is the existing situation with the other trailer parks in the area. The one on
Highway 89, Aweeka's, and Preston's Campground, and so forth.
Anderson: They are all individually metered to the pads and are read so that. . .
Craig: By The District.
Anderson: By the District so that if they so choose, if we change Rule 10, then
any existing trailer park, mobilehome park, in the area may pay to have a master
meter installed and they would read their own individual meter pads at the same
rate. They would have the same right as Mr. Bright. So we are not trying to make
a case for Mr. Bright. This is the point that the Committee is trying to make.
That if we are going to make this change, that we ought to make it for everyone
in the District.
Hobensack: I just found from my very � able secretary at my back, that she feels
quite confident that there is another trailer park in the area that is master
metered and is reselling electricity.
Craig: Which one is that?
Kinzie: Pierce, at Donner. Lak.e.
Hobensack: I wasn't aware of it until right now.
Sutton: That would have been probably a result of the fact that the purchase of
the Donner Lake line and nothing ever happened, I mean nothing was ever done to. . .
Kinzie: Village Green used to be on a master meter, La Siesta used to be on a
master meter, Los Altos used to be on a master meter, the district
just last year.
district
Sutton: And why was the conversion made? Was it because/was starting to enforce
its rules.
Kinzie: Village Green was about 171 and that was because the customers got tired
of being billed by Village Green. Riverview was billed by a master meter and rebilled
by the owners up until the renters got mad and wanted the PUD to bill it. Los Altos
we started doing that when Tom said it was illegal to resale electricity and made
them on individual meters. And I believe. . .La Siesta and the individual meters, but
they were all in the owner's name and he did all the billing, so they were all in
his name but then he turned around and said here is your bill for the month of May.
Hobensack: Well , that is illegal .
Kinzie: That is the same thing as having the individual meters.
Sutton: But then the apartment house over here which caused quite a considerable
upheaval at the Board a few years ago was the same situation and he was billing
the customers more than he should have been and I think was taken to Small Claims
Court, and that was when the District started enforcing its own rule. And it was
on a gradual basis as -metering could be instituted by the District.
Kinzie: That was what initiated it.
Craig: I think he was charging hook-up and disconnect fees.
Sutton: He was also overcharging him in the rate. And it did go to Small Claims
Court by the individuals. Okay, then the practice though recently in the last two
or three years since the Hartsten case has been to get all trailer parks and apart-
ments on. . .
Kinzie: I don't know Pierce wasn't and I don't know why Cozy Motel . . .I think because
Cozy is a motel and not a mobilehome park. But Cozy and Pierce are the only two right
now on master meters.
Craig: Are we ready for a vote on whether. . .
Sutton: Well , if there is a motion, is there a motion.
Craig: . . .or not we should pursue this master meter.
Page 44 - May 27, 1975 C� Ire
Bright Mobilehome Park . . . continued
Sutton: I think we need a motion to change Rule 10. And I am not in favor of
making such a motion. I think the District will loose revenue by this conver-
sion. I know that there are a large number oftrailer spaces in the area and
apparently most of them are on individual meters and we are managing to read their
meters apparently and bill them. There are, I don't know how many, apartment
houses. But I think that if we do this for a mobilehome park, we are also will
be doing it eventually for apartment houses.
Wilson: It would seem that if that proposal is still alive to build a 200 unit
apartment complex up by Hilltop, wouldn't be at all surprised to see that. . .
don't
Sutton: I/think the district has to do it either. ---�
Wilson: I heard about the advantages to Mr. Bright, and the fact that there
aren't any real advantages to the District, are there disadvantages to the District?
By doing this?
Craig: I think it keeps everything uniform throughout the District. I can't see
making one set of rules for one trailer park and a different situation for another
trailer park.
Waters: Apparently, from the girl here, you have people that have been going that
direction for the last eight or ten years.
Sutton: Yeah, but I think it is the District's fault, that this isn't being
enforced.
Craig: And also the customer complaints that live in the trailer parks would vote
for PUD Directors to handle their electricity and yet the trailer park owner be
between the PUD and the. . .
Lowell Northrup: Customers who live in Trailer Parks can't vote. You have got to
own property.
Sutton: No, this is any registered voter who lives here 30 days.
Craig: Any registered voter.
Sutton: Some water districts are by. . .on the basis of land and. ..but this is not,
this is just a public agency like the School District is.
Craig: Do we have a motion to change Rule 14?
Waters: I move that we change Rule 10 to allow master metering. As listed in
the Committee Report here. At no charge to exceed our rates. . .our subrates at
that time.
Sutton: Wait a minute, now. You are not saying that you can't receive it at a lessor
cost than the Domestic Rate?
Waters: I would leave that up to some future time. Just change the rule. I think
I couldn't change the rule without an opinion from the Gentlemen here. But in order
to get it on the floor and get it off the floor, let's go. That is what I propose.
ANDerson: Is this giving Mr. Bright enough direction? Can we. . .
Waters: I don't think it only concerns Mr. Bright, it concerns all the mobilehome
parks.
Anderson: Yes, but I think that it is Mr. Bright who has instigated this and I
was wondering if we couldn't get our attorney and Mr. Bright's attorney to begin ""'
drawing up a contract subsequent to the change of Rule 10.
Sutton: Well , wait a minute. Let's do one thing at a time. Let's see if we
are going to change Rule 10. And I don't know that Rule 10 is necessarily going
to effect Mr. Bright at all . Maybe we won't authorize our attorney to draw up
a contract with him.
Craig: Do we have a second to Director Waters' motion?
Anderson : Yes, I will second the motion.
Wilson: I have a question. Merrilyn, probably might know. In the instances you
named, say Village Green, which was master metered and is now billed by the District,
did the District simply assume those meters?
Page 45 - May 27, 1975 7
Bright Mobilehome Park.. .continued
Kinzie: They assumed the meters.
Wilson: They didn't pay any hook-up charges?
Kinzie: No, I may be wrong on that, Fosten, They may have put in all new meters.
I am not sure. I recal 1 there were some new meters put i n.
Wilson: My concern is what happens when we go to master meter procedure, and as
it apparently happened in several other trailer parks, the people who actually
live there demand that the system be run by PUD and Mr. Bright comes back to the
Board and requests that we take over the system. Will we, as we apparently have
done in the past, accept the system and read the meters ourselves? Or will we
insist on hook-up fees at some subsequent date?
Anderson: I think that is up to the drawing up of the contract at the time. That
is pure conjecture on my part.
Sutton: Joe, you did do a revision of Rule 10, and was it just a permissive thing
or was it a requirement or what. I mean, did it allow the district to master meter
trailer parks and allow resale, or did it require the District to do it? Would the
board, even if Rule 10 were changed, would the Board still have discretion as to
whether it wished to, in this particular instance, sign a contract which allowed
master metering?
Joynt: Just to get something before the Board, I did propose, and I think you all
have a copy, of an amendment to Rule 10, which I think adds a whole new section or
subparagraph 3. Now, I can't say that the thought crossed my mind as to whether,
and think this is your question, what is .your question??? All mobilehome parks had
to do it? Or even under this rule, the District could still pick and choose?
Sutton: I wondered if it were permissive or if it were a new requirement that. . .
and I don't seem to have a copy of your proposal which I was surprised to see you
had written before we decided.
Anderson: I think it would have to be permissive because otherwise you would be
forcing all other mobilehome parks in the distance, to put in a master meter, which
is rather expensive and to conform to this. I think that if they wish to, I think
{
that is the way I interpreted your proposal .
Joynt: I think I would probably have to go back and rethink that, but I think it is
permissive. I patterned it after the PG&E rule; I don't think it would require other
mobilehome parks to do this. I would construe it to mean, they may or they may not.
And from what I understand the way PG&E does it, they probably have several mobile-
home parks one way and several another way. They will go either way, whatever the
mobilehome park owner wants to do. Oh, Pat, I don't know if it was a question as to
why I proposed an amendment to Rule 10 long before I did. . .long before this matter
came before this board. I could see this coming and the reason I did, is after I
received a letter from Mr. Thompson, who's connected with Mr. Moskovitz, one of the
points Mr. Thompson makes in his letter is that he believes it could be done under
your present Rule 10 and I disagree with that. So, if the Board wants to amend Rule
10, fine, this would do it or something close to it. There is nothing, I have no
pride in authorship on this and there is nothing magic about these particular words,
it can be. . .undoubtedly it would be something similar to that.
Craig: Is the Board ready for the vote? As soon as Rex gets back.
Wilson: If somebody would like to educate me. Why was there an objection to waiv-
ing the hook-up charge?
Sutton: Mr. Bright problem was more than a hook-up charge. It also had to do with
.--- some substantial disagreement over the contract that was being proposed, having to
do with bonding and I can't even remember what now. Mr. Bright particularly objected
to our newly adopted $350 hook-up charge. Which was supposedly, as far as I know,
based on actual expense to the District. Although we did indicate at that time, that
that amount which was based on a private home, might not be a valid charge for a mobile-
home park. And we never did have any conclusions for him on that because the Committee
was appointed. Mr. Bright decided he wanted to operate his own system and resell
electricity and a Committee was formed to try to investigate his problem. 125 units
times $350 was how much, Roy?
Waters: $47,000. In the area of $47,000.
Sutton: But yet we never did have an answer to the question of whether the $350. . .
Waters: We are going to have to do all the work to the pads.
Page 46 - May 27, 1975
to
Bright Mobilehome Park continued
Hobensack: He violently opposed any connection fee at all.
Sutton: Yeah, in fact, he wanted us to build the lines, if you wanted to know the
truth. In other words. . .
Waters: If we are going to charge him $350, then we are going to have to build a
line to each pad, just like a home. You build it to the home, don't you. You
put the line in to the meter. And we are going to have to do that. Certainly
you can't tell him to do that and then charge him $350.
Sutton: No, if he were a subdivision, we would charge hi m. . .he would have to ---�
build the lines and we were not treating him any differently than we were a
subdivider.
Craig: Tahoe Donner is paying for its own lines.
Sutton: The District would make the hook-up to the pad as they would to the
home and install a meter. And the new hook-up charge was based on the actual
cost to the District. Other than, there might be some deviation for a mobile-
home park. It might cost less, for all I know, to hook up a mobilehome. I
don't know, that would be Paul 's recommendation.
Moskovitz: May I make another comment at this time, or is it out of order?
Craig: Anything.
MOskovitz: I don 't think it is a good analogy to compare this kind of a mobile-
home park where you rent the space to a subdivision where the lots are sold. The
reason is that when the lots are sold, the subdivider, will set the cost sufficient
so that the investment in the line is recovered.
Wilson: It may not be for a period of many years.
Craig: I assume that when Mr. Bright sells the trailer park, he will figure in
that same cost.
Moskovitz: No, but this is a rental .
i
Craig: Yes, but what happens when he sells the trailer park?
Sutton: Or in a condominium unit.
Moskovitz: Whoever owns it is going to have to recovering the investment through
rentals. I mean that is the whole idea of it. It is a rental sort of thing
rather than a sale to those who will occupy the pads.
Craig: But there is nothing to prevent Mr. Bright from selling the trailer park.
Moskovitz: Yes, but that is not it is built for. It is built to be an investment
for whoever buys it. Whereas, in the case of the subdivision, it is meant for the
lots to be sold. That is the whole purpose. Here, it is meant to be rented. And
so that the recovery has to be in the rental . The problem with having it in the
rental , is again, that it is not going to be varied in the amount of electricity
that is sold. This gives him an opportunity to recover that portion of the invest-
ment. It is very important to the financial feasibility to the lender in this case.
Sutton: Yes, but that is not necessarily a concern to this District. You know,
whether Mr. Bright enjoys certain advantages as far as developing the mobilehome
park goes. That is really not my concern. Yau just can't stretch it that far.
would
Moskovitz: I/think your concern is to make sure that yo*e properly compensated
in a fair way for the services you provide to the master meter.
Wilson: But also, we have a responsibility to those people that are going to
live there. We are a public agency and we have a responsibility to the people
who live in the District.
Moskovitz: That is true. And I would say that if the service is not done properly
then you would have the right to make a change.
Wilson: How?
Moskovitz: This is something I think can be worked out in our contract.
Page 47 - May 27, 1975
107
Bright Mobi l ehome Park . . . continued
Craig: Where would we get the hook-up fee at that time? Surely the people that are
renting the trailers aren't going to come up with $350 to get a PUD meter.
Moskovitz: Well , the meter will already be there, of course.
Craig: But to get the PUD to take it over.
Moskovitz: It will have been installed. Let me suggest that these are things that
we can consider in the contract itself. I don't have the answers for you now at this
point. I don't have Mr. Bright to consult and I think it takes a little thought. But
�— I am thinking . . . (end of tape, a few words were lost)
Sutton: But it doesn't apply to this particular case.
Moskovitz: It does apply legally.
Sutton: . . .or even ethically, or philosophically, or anything else.
Moskovitz: Oh, no I wasn't getting to that.
Waters: I don't think we are getting anywhere, let's. . .
Moskovitz: . . .it seems to me that it is precedent you could look to, not that you are
required by law to comply because the PUC doesn't govern you. I am sorry if I am
taking up too much of your time but I want to make sure you have all the consider-
ations in mind.
Craig: Sure, we appreciate you coming tonight. Is the Board ready for a vote on
the proposed amendment to Rule 10.
Sutton: Well , are we adopting that particular. . .this particular amendment or what
was Roy' s motion?
Craig: I assume we would go with Roy's motion. As written by Mr. Joynt?
Waters: I doubt it, that wasn't even brought up then.
Craig: What amendment. . .
Waters: To modify Rule 10, I would say, to allow master metering.
Sutton: So, we would not necessarily be adopting this specific wording. We would
have an opportunity to examine that, I presume.
Craig: I guess.
Sutton: We are just going to vote on the motion.
Craig: And that is what you seconded, Rex?
Anderson: Yes, because I am not sure that this is the exact wording we want.
Joynt: That was just a draft that I threw out for. . .in the event that you do
decide to go this route you have got something to start with.
Craig: So we are just talking about revising Rule 10 to allow master metering
in trailer parks. May we have a roll call vote?
Kinzie: Mr. Waters (yes), Mrs. Sutton (no), Mr. Wilson (I will abstain) , Mr. Ander-
son (yes), Mr. Craig (no).
Anderson: That leaves us nowhere.
Sutton: That is just where we were before, with Rule 10.
Cra*g: The motion did not carry. Anybody else want to make any other motions on
this subject.
Sutton: I move that Mr. Joynt and Mr. Hobensack and the Bright Committee contact
Mr. Bright and see if he wishes to pursue the contract which was held up by the
Board previously.
Craig: This includes payment of hook-up fees?
Sutton: Well , I think maybe Mr. Ho bensack should examine the hook-up fees and see
Page 48 - May 27, 1975 1/ �
Bright Mobilehome Park . . . continued
whether the same amount is legitimately applicable to a trailer park.
Waters: I wouldn't go for that, I will say, let the full-board do it now.
Sutton: Do what? Decide on hook-up fees.
Waters: Yes, on the whole thing.
Sutton: Wait a minute, I don't understand.
Waters: Well , we brought a proposal and you refused to accept it so why don't --�
the whole board do it?
Sutton: You want instead of the Bright Committee, you would just like the
District to. . .
Waters: I would like the full board to handle it now.
Wilson: I would like to support Roy a little bit in that they brought a recommend-
ation in and we have responded by not fully going along with the recommendation.
Anderson: Do you have some suggestion for us to go back with, or are we just going
to back and do the same thing again and again?
Sutton: First of all , a committee makes a report but that doesn't mean that the
entire board has to go by the recommendation of the committee. I mean there is
nothing wrong with that.
Anderson: No, we are not saying that you do. But what do you want us to go back
and do?
and I don't know
Sutton: My suggestion was that we let Mr. Bright know,/whether it is the Bright
Committee or whether it is the Board, that the result and if he intended to
pursue the contract, we had already indicated. . .
Waters: Let the full board do it then, then we will get no letters from other
people on it. Let everybody do the same thing.
Anderson: Mr. Bright has already indicated that that original contract was not
agreeable to him. So what is the sense of going back and. . .that is the same as
him. ..excuse me. . .that is the same as us going back to him and saying "we don't
accept yours". I think that there ought to be some, if it possible, to have some
middle line. Would you agree to him having his own master meter and charging, not
charging, including any costs he wishes to recoop in his rent?
Sutton: I don' t believe that's. . .how much he charges for rent. . .I don't believe is
any of my concern.
Anderson: Alright, so if we master meter him. . . .
Sutton: No, I didn't agree with mastermetering. That is violation of Rule 10.
Wilson: If you give him a meter. . .
Anderson: No, it is not.
Sutton: I think it is.
Anderson: We do it for motels, why can't we do it for mobi 1 ehome parks?
Sutton: There is a difference in the permanency of the occupants.
Waters: Tell me, how can you master meter water and not power? How can you
legally do it? Isn't a. . .
Sutton: First of all , let me say that I appreciate the timethe Committee spent
on this problem and I agreed that you should have pursued the master meter since
that was what Mr. Bright seemed determined he wanted. And this is my file just on
Mr. Brights master meter proposal . And I certainly know alot more about it than
I did before. I still don't know what the practice is in other publicly-owned
utilities, however, I only know what PG&E does. I still don't know whether this
district actually can resell to anyone other than a public utility in water or
power and I don't know where that answer will come from if it ever comes, but I
still has a question about that. Which has not been resolved by 200 pages of
material .
Page 49 - May 27, 1975 1 t.I.
Bright' Mobilehome Park . .. continued
Moskovitz: Mr. Craig, may I make some inquiries and make some comments. If it would
help the Board come to a clean decision on this, first to provide a legal opinion
directly on the issue that Mrs. Sutton has raised. I thought we had addressed our-
selves. . .
Sutton: Mr. Moskovitz, really your opinion, I think you do a fine job for your
clients, but I don't happen to be one of your clients. But if I ever need you, I
might get you for me personally because I think that you do a very good job in rep-
resenting clients But your opinion, you know, which your office already rendered
i one, and t didn t. . .I m afraid, persuade me.
Moskovitz: Okay, let me make this suggestion. I recognize and appreciate that
you cannot rely upon my advise because I don't represent the District, I try to do
a workmanlike job in writing legal opinions, I don't like to prost o tote- my talents.
However, I can prepare something and submit to Mr. Joynt for his consideration and
his independent review and then his own opinion on that specific question because
you are not yet satisfied with, that you have had an answer. I would like to •�
be able to have you satisified with your own counsel . And I would be happy to do
some work to give him some material that he can look at. That is one thing, also
you mentioned that you don't know what other public agencies do. I will undertake
to make an inquiry about that. And provide it to you.
Sutton : Mr. MOskovitz, you did a very splendid job of representing Lakeworld
Development in Tahoe Donner subdivision, then known as Tahoe Northwoods. We are
still reaping the problems from the fine job representing them, and I am not inter-
ested in you getting Mr. Joynt opinions. Ifve are going to get opinions on this,
we will get them on our own. That is my position.
Craig: I wonder if there some connection between you representing Dart and Truckee
and you/Mr. Bright in Truckee.
representing
Moskovitz: None, whatsoever. It is another client. I represent many clients, I
represent public agencies as you are, many boards cF Directors of Districts and
Counties. I represent private clients and I represent each of them independently
from the others. There is no connection whatsoever.
Anderson: Now, you say that you have no. . .
Sowell Northrup (from audience): Sounds like Mr. Moskovitz is on trial here.
Sutton: Anytime you come to one of our Board Meetings, you are on trial , Mr.
Northrup, didn't you know that?
Anderson: You said that you don't have enough information that says that it is
legal or illegal and yet our own counsel says that there is no legal prohibition
to the adoption of this recommendation which is to amend Rule 10. I, . .
Craig: I just don't like it myself. I just like to see it standardized throughout
the entire district, meter each individual trailer pad. It is just my personal opinion.
WAters: Both power and water?
Sutton: I think there is a substantial difference between water service and power.
Waters: I am just wondering, you are going to have to get a legal opinion on that.
Anderson: I am just saying that I don't see any reason to seek any more legal
counsel . I think we have already had it. As far as we have looked, there is no
legal prohibition for us to do it. The Board can do it or can't. At their discretion.
Craig: I agree. I see no prohibition for us changing the rule, I just have no
intense desire to change the rules.
Anderson: I was getting the feeling from Pat she wanted Joe to go and do some more
research to find out legally if it possible or not. I don't think.. .
Sutton: No, I am not interested in it being changed, either. I am perfectly happy
with the fact that motion failed and I don't intend to support any change in rule 10.
I intend to see that it is enforced. And I hope that the rest of the Board does too.
And if it is the District's fault that meters have not been installed in some of these
trailer parks, which apparently are master metered, then I think we are very vulner-
able. And I think that I would like that to be on the agenda for the next meeting,
Tuesday. And if. . .
Waters: Then we are going to force these existing trailer parks to put meters in?
To individually meter. We are? At $350?
Page 50 - May 27, 1975
Bright Mobilehome Park . . . contieued
Sutton: That is what your rule says. I don't know if you can charge that to an
existing trailer park where your own failure to enforce your rule is what has
allowed it to exist.
Waters: I don't know, perhaps when they went in, there was no rule then.
sutton: Well , this rule is back from 1962.
Waters: Well , motels were in before 1962. All of them were.
Craig: Well , if we may come to a close, I am. . .
Anderson: Well , as one of the Committee members, then, I am sure Mr. MOskovitz
will convey what has happened this evening to Mr. Bright. But I would like to
ask Paul to officially indicate to him in a letter the indecision of the Board.
Moskovitz: It does leave us in a situation where we are not sure where we are
r supposed to go. I agree with you.
Wilson: It is entirely possible to conform to the existing rules.
Moskovitz: Which is that there will be an individual meter to each pad, that
is the way you interpret it, I gather. And that the District will own and oper-
ate the system which Mr. Bright will construction. And Mr. Bright will pay a
hook-up fee in addition. Is that your understanding of present rules so I
can convey it to Mr. Bright?
Wilson: I wouldn't tie it down that tightly. I don't have a full understanding.
Craig: I would.
Sutton: Yeah, that is the way it is.
Anderson: I would say "a fee", I would not say that it would be the $350 because
I think we did discuss the fact that it could be worked out to where it would be
a lessor amount.
*0-,
Craig: Because the $350 is for an overhead, residential service.
Waters: And then somebody else would come along and get the same deal .
Sutton: Well , what the proposal was when Mr. Bright brought this up was that
the manager examine that hook-up charge to find out whether all trailer parks,
if there should be a different schedule for trailer park hook-ups. And it got
side-tracked because other negotiations were going on. And I think now is the time
that we have to have the answer to that. And if it is $350 based on costs, then
that is what it is. And if it is $50, that is what it is.
Moskovitz: Let me just make another inquiry so I can make sure I convey to Mr.
Bright what the feeling of the Board is. There is not majority support on the
Board for any kind of master meter whatsoever. Irrespective of what the price
might be, or the rate might be, to the individual pad renter. Am I correct on
that? Mr. Anderson asked, "what about a master meter but not a resale as such
but the trailer park or mobilehome park owner can attempt to recover the cost
of electricity served to him at the master meter any way he pleases, in rent
or so forth, as long as it is not a resale that is metered." Now, is that some-
thing that is a possibility?
Craig & Sutton: No.
Sutton: What's the difference?
MOskovitz: The difference is that you don't have, quote, a resale, unquote.
Anderson: You don't have individual pad meters.
Sutton: Then you have just destroyed the whole basis for the master metering
from Mr. Bright's standpoint.
Moskovitz: I just want to convey to him what the possibilities are.
Sutton: Well , I am in favor of Rule 10 as it now stands.
Waters: That the construction will be done on the basis of metering and cost
him $350, because there will be no change in that policy. There will be no
negotiations on it.
Page 51 - May 27, 1975 JJJ
Bright Mobilehome Park . . . continued
Sutton: How can you predict that there will be no change in that policy?
Waters: You watch and see it. There will be no change. You are not going to make
one policy and then six months later change it.
Craig: The $350 was based on overhead, residential service. How do you equate that
with a trailer park, Roy?
Waters: I wonder how much it is going to cost us, I don't know.
Craig: I don't have any idea, myself.
•-� Waters: I think we made a policy, let's follow i t. We have Rule 10, we are following it.
Let's follow all of our policies, then. Don't change them to fit each individual need.
Craig: Well , maybe a trailer park. . .is different than a residential customer, a house.
I don't know, maybe not. You have an answer to your question, Mr. Moskovitz?
Moskovitz: I think I have some indication to what a majority will not approve since we
had one abstention, it is not clear what the majority would approve.
Wilson: Ian not, in direct response to the question about one mete and then Mr. Bright
finding a way to pay that cost. Because without billing that cost the customer. . . I am
not opposed to that at this point. You know, somebody could come up with an argument
which would change my mind. So I am not firmly in favor of it. But I have no opposition
to it particularly. That is one person on the Board.
Moskovitz: In this vote, you were a key person. So, I sure would want to convey what
your views are, and now I can.
Craig: Would you or Mr. Bright like to be on the agenda for next Tuesday? To discuss
it further?
Moskovitz: You are preparing it right now, aren't you? You might as well put us on
in the event we are ready to come back again. If we are not, we will let you know.
Craig: Well , we need 24 hours notice to change the agenda. You know add something.
Moskovitz: Why don't you put him on, and if we feel that it is not fruitful , we can
call you and tell you that we aren't going to be here.
Craig: Okay, if that concludes it for tonight, I am ready to go home.
Waters: What about the rest of the agenda?
Craig: It is up to the Board, I am going home now, we can either adjourn the meeting
to some other time, or add these to the June 3 meeting or whatever your wish is.
Wilson: I would like to know if anything has immediate importance.
Craig: I think they all do.
Waters: I think this downtown alley is most important. I think union negotiations
are most important.
Craig: Would you like to adjourn the meeting until tomorrow? Or continue the meet-
ing without me? Whatever your wish is. I would just like to go home now myself.
Wilson: I would like to continue somewhat longer.
Craig: Verywell , Rex, you are the Vice-Chairman, will you take over the meeting.
r-- Sutton: I think that there is so much left, John, I think we had better meet again.
We had better have an adjourned-adjourned meeting.
Craig: Right, I think there are several hours here, at least two more hours maybe.
I don't even want to spent another hour. I don't thinly I am the only one that is
getting/of meetings past midnight.
tired
Wilson: I don't think it is any solution to shove things off.
Anderson: I am just wondering if there is some way that we can make an effort to
seriously look at shortening.
Craig: I would like to start the meetings earlier in the evenings, have more meetings
per month.
Page 52 - May 27, 1975 t!y
Adjournment of Meeting . . . continued
Sutton: Is there any evening this week that we can meet, like tomorrow or the
next evening that the board is available?
Craig: Tomorrow night is fine with me, any time this week is fine with me.
Waters: I am not available Wednesday, thursday, or Friday of this week.
Craig: Even at 4:30 or 5:00 o'clock? Or something like that?
Sutton: Well maybe then we should pick out the really important things that
should be dealt with and stay for a while now and then delay the other things.
rest of the
Craig: It is fine if the/Board stays but I am going home. If there is no objec-
tion, that is fine.
Anderson: Do you have any comments on the rest of the items?
Craig: Well , all of them, yes.
Sutton: How much is there on the agenda for next week already besides the Airport
Well , which would take some time.
Craig: Mr. Bright, you requested master metering of other trailer parks, Insurance
Payments, this is the difference between paying insurance monthly or all at one time.
Blasting Report from somebody. We are going to have a man from the PUC to talk about
GO 95.rules for construction of the District that I have invited. This is on _the
District's safety standards -that the District builds to.
Sutton: You can't stay another half hour?
Craig: No, I don't think it would serve any purpose.
Waters: In that case, I move that the meeting be adjourned.
Sutton: Is there any day that anybody can meet, or any afternoon or any morning.
Wilson: I am available at most anytime.
Craig: I am available anytime the rest of this week.
Sutton: Well , why don't we adjourn until 8:00 o'clock tomorrow morning.
Craig: Let me amend my statement. I have a job at 8:00 tomorrow morning. That
is why I am leaving.
Sutton: What time would be available, Roy, at 4:30?
Waters: I go to work at 7:00 o'clock and I am liable to get off at 6:00, I don't
know what time I get off.
Sutton: Are you available some afternoon at 4:30?
Waters: No. There is construction going on in case you don't know it in the alley.
Sutton: Maybe we ought to have something on the alley before you leave.
Craig: Go ahead, I am going home.
Waters: I made a motion.
Craig: I would second it, but I am president. ~�
Sutton: I will second it. Then it is your problem. If you want to call a
special meeting, you call it.
Craig: Can we have a roll-call vote on adjournment? Roy?
Waters: I don't think we need it, we haven't had a roll-call vote before, have we?
Craig: Okay, these items that weren't handled tonight will be on the JUne 3 regular
meeting. The meeting is adjourned. tat approximately 11 :45 p.m. )
ae
WIAA&4-�L) John Craig, President O
he Board
Mer 1 yn z1 e, eco ng Secretary
Page 5 y 27, 1975
STATEMENT OF GENERAL FUND
MAY 20$ 1975
Bank Balance - 5-6-75 102085. 95
Truckee Electric Revenue 64,311. 80
Water Revenue 2 ,690 . 20
Donner Lake Electric Revenue 182376 . 62
Miscellaneous Billings Revenue 31275 . 40
Miscellaneous Revenue 11449. 55
Allowances (77. 45)
IBEW 108 . 50
Approved Billings 6 ,451. 45
Bank of America-Fed. Tax Deposit 22997. 50
Dept. of Benefit Payments 658 . 10 (10 , 21S . 55)
PAYROLL
5-15-75 DT OT STANDBY GROSS NET
Hobensack 985. 50 707. 39
Straub 21. 84 72. 80 735. 28 476. 84
Reynolds 72. 80 713. 44 548. 97
Silva 689. 04 523. 54
Krajewski 686. 26 526. 85
Grow .27. 30 667. 94 520. 89
Lopez 52. 97 640. 64 462 . 95
Drace 617 . 93 440. 30
Kinzie 10. 20 99. 45 558 . 45 427 . 80
Connell 496. 32 347.03
Barry 462 . 818 365. 27
Kirchner 426. 80 299. 46
Chapman 376. 64 295. 44
Rich 325. 28 242. 00
Rose 130. 00 108. 99 6 ,293 . 72)
MOM" 10. 20 201. 56 145. 60 8512. 40
Bank Balance - May 20, 1975 832602 . 80
BILLS FOR BOARD' S APPROVAL
Petty Cash Miscellaneous 48 . 32
Directors 500. 00
George Cattan pension payment 258. 75
U. S. Post Office postage 300. 00
Santa Maria Cruz Refund for overpayment of
connection fees 105. 00 (12212 . 07)
Bank Balance after Payment of Above $82 ,390 . 73
May 27, 1975 Board Meeting
f /C C.